Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

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Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:27 am

Pulled down a core pump that wasn't even good enough to be called a core. This pump is so screwed up the case isn't even looking real good.
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Ouch
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Wow damn
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Notice the indenting above and below?
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Couldn't bare the strain here either.
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How the above breaks and not this rubber I'll never know (black pieces) edit....those things just drive the gov gear,nothing more.
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And then the little carrier that holds up the rollers and their axles...
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Could the timing piston and bore were stuck/seized together. I kinda think this could have been some reason for the failure. Maybe keeping the pump advanced all the time is not a good thing
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I still need to make a socket to get at the inside of the head and rotor.

I will update this tread as I go. I have two more pumps to pull down and need to finish disassembling this one. I haven't even seen the vane pump yet.

Vane pump disassembled.
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Looks like there's some scoring in that aluminum
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And I guess this is the plate that's turned backwards and give a no start condition?
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Not a lot of tools needed for this either

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Last edited by ellis93 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:41 am, edited 3 times in total.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:28 am

I hope you boys appreciate all these pics.....taking and posting them is becoming a real pain in the azz.

Tore into the non intercooled pump last night and seen what the insides look like befor they get munched.
First thing I did was remove the pump top and disassemble it. That's all pretty much straight forward. Only voodoo you need to remember is to mark the position of the throttle lever to the shaft.
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Notice the lines on the lever and the line in the shaft.
With disassembling the top the only thing I seen that might mess with someone is removing the afc lever and its shaft. There are two balls,one on each side of the shaft bore that you'll need to remove. You'll accomplish this by picking a side and drive the ball toward the inside of the pump. This will push out the ball on the other side. Once the other ball is out,simply reverse the process only instead of driving the ball you'll now be on the afc shaft. You'll need a small pin punch to do this.
Apparently most use epoxy to seal the balls back up when reassembled.
Veiw of the guts with top removed.
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That's the govenor and lever assembly. It's removed by loosening the govenor shaft nut and spinning out the shaft. Careful how you do it or the govenor weights will fall out of it carriage.
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Also there are some shims or washers in between the pump body and gov gear face. Pic of it and the pump shaft.
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I don't really have a good pic of the removal of the H&R as an assembly as it was a two handed operation,it's all loose and a real bitch to keep together. I did however take a pic of the two springs that push against the gov lever and the head.
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With the H&R removed you can see the alignment/timing pin,whatever it is. That thing needs to be aligned with the keyway in the pump shaft...so I'm told/have read.
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It in my hand.
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With that piece removed (cam plate) you get to see the rollers and whatnot
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Now I remove the rollers
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Take note of the position of the beveled washer,it sits toward the case.
Now the next thing to remove it this retainer
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It covers this
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And keeps this pin in. It connects the ring that the rollers set in (not familiar with "the" tech terms yet) with the timing piston,which manipulate timing.
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When that's out far enough,grab it with your pliers and lift the ring out
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Now to push the timing piston out of its bore
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Careful,this little feller will fall out of the piston
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After all of that is gone,lift up the pumps input
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And now the plate and two screws that is over the vane pump. It's striaght forward,no voodoo
This is what I uncovered. Yuck
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I ain't playin with that....cleanliness is next to godliness
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Last edited by ellis93 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:44 am, edited 4 times in total.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:29 am

Ok so now we're going back together
First thing for me is loctite on the front seal,better safe than sorry.
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And installed with the excess wiped off. Notice the little mark on the seal land..? That's where the keyway in the pump shaft lines up,and magically it's on número uno.....I never new that until now. :lol:
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After that I have bolted the pump case in my fwd trans fixture (yes homemade) and get the guts of the vain pump greased and ready to assemble,notice the divot in the pump paddle,it goes toward the center of the rotor.
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I found out the hard way that ic and non ic pumps ( between the two I have) are different thicknesses....I'm actually using the vain pump from another pump in this one because the original was rusted in spots,well I tryed to use the paddles from the non ic pump in the ic pump outer ring and rotor. It locked up. Don't do that.
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Once you get the vain pump situated it's time for the input shaft,shaft washer,and key. That keyway can be a pita to make stay....even greased. Take a center punch and put a pucker in the side of it to make it stay put.
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In the hole,greased
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Next up the roller ring,big pin and small pin with keeper. You also need to have the timing piston in place.
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Now for the rollers ,coupler and cam plate.
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Notice the tab,dowel sticking up....line it up with the keyway in the pump shaft.
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That tab indexes the rotor shaft,get it wrong and it's out of time. There's is some sort of thrust washer in between as well. I have it greased into the rotor shaft.
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Now is the time to install the gov lever assembly and slide on the collar that's on the rotor shaft. Placing the pin on the lever inside the collars hole for it.
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Now to the gov shaft and jam nut. I just put it back like I found it on disassembly. I don't have a clue why or how to adjust it or if you even need to worry over it.
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No pic of the whole thing assembled,guess I didn't take it.
Now for the part I was dreading,assembling the head and feeding it down onto the pump. Turns out the grease helps a whole lot. You'll need to grease the hell out of each and ever piece to make them stay. I got it on the third try.
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Now as I pushed down on the head I was sure to keep tabs on where those big springs were and how close those two pins (inside the big springs) where in relation to those two ears on the rotor shaft. I started two head bolts and only used my fingers to tighten them....ever so slowly.
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The pins and springs I'm watching
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And one of the pins poking thru as I turn the input some.
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Spare parts just so we're on the same page here. Pin springs...holes to watch.
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Once those pins are thru the holes,bolt that head down your in the clear.

On to the pump top.
Install the metal sleeve for the afc guide pin down this hole,with the oring greased in it.
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Then the retainer
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Pic of it with the guide pin in and greased
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I moved it back and forth several times to make sure there's no binding,you want no drag. If there's any drag it will not let the pump supply fuel evenly and make the guide pin loose contact with the fuel pin. It would make for erratic fueling
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There's a bunch of junk you have to do before you get to installing the pump top on the pump. It's all striaght forward and without any voodoo anyone needs to know....as long as you install the manual kill shaft/lever before you install the afc lever your in the clear.
One thing that I did was to follow some advice our very own resident senior citizen PToombs gave me and that was to thread the afc lever shaft holes,so I could use a screw to seal the holes instead of the balls. It sounds like a good idea and may fend off future leaks.
This is what I did,threaded the hole and used a set screw to seal it with loctite.
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You can see how I had the loctite mash out and surrounded the set screw
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That's also how I install the gov spring and tophat. It's kind of a pita to do it like this but I can see everything that's going on. You can just hang the spring on the gov lever assembly thru the tophat and hang the other end thru the throttle lever. Then just slide the throttle lever shaft up inside the pump top when your ready.
Pics of me doing it my way
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I apologize for the pics. My brother look them for me.
Anyhow hope this helps folks take the plung off into fixing one.
Last edited by ellis93 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby matthewh » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:35 am

:shock: Damn Ellis, what engine did that first pump come from? I have zero knowledge of these pumps, but kinda looks like it ate itself, or something went threw it, maybe?
'93 W350 5spd Getrag, 4.10 gears, 83k miles and counting, Mods: LPPP AKA Ma Dually
'54 Dodge M37 6.2/700R4/205, 5.89 gears, WC rear axle
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:42 am

It was a core I bought off of book of faces,one of those groups. The rotor seized up,I had to beat the broken shaft out of the head. It's toast from one end to the other.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby CumminsPower59 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:25 am

No need for a special socket, you can use a small pipe wrench or something similar with some sort of soft metal (aluminum or brass) between the jaws, works great.
Ike

91 W350 SRW, 3.07's, NV4500, 370's, THD LPPP, Super HX40, 2nd gen IC swap, BHAF, Isspro's, 2" lift, 285's on 3rd gen 17"'s.
04 VW Jetta Wagon TDI 5speed
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:38 am

CumminsPower59 wrote:No need for a special socket, you can use a small pipe wrench or something similar with some sort of soft metal (aluminum or brass) between the jaws, works great.

That's how I got it off. I Just like to have the proper thing.....or close to it :lol:
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:38 am

Yep, that's what I expect the 14 to look like. That's what happens when the rotor seizes.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:32 pm

Baffles me that the plastic/rubber grommets didn't bust apart and keep the shafts ears from breaking. That pump had to be singing when it seized.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby matthewh » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:11 pm

What caused the rotor to seize? Abuse, high miles, neglect?
'93 W350 5spd Getrag, 4.10 gears, 83k miles and counting, Mods: LPPP AKA Ma Dually
'54 Dodge M37 6.2/700R4/205, 5.89 gears, WC rear axle
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:09 pm

Could be almost anything. From the main shaft, it looks to me like that pump had a lot of miles.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:32 pm

matthewh wrote:What caused the rotor to seize? Abuse, high miles, neglect?

Hot rod mentality,maxed out and probably had the schit ran out of it. It had a DennyT afc delete,least that's what I was told by the original owner. It was abused.

First post will be edited shortly.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby dazedandconfused » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:50 pm

That's a nice door stop there.
1983 Dodge D150 that has been repowered with a 93 Cummins/518 running gear AKA The Ugly Duck! I would much rather build them then buy them.[
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby PToombs » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:56 pm

Well, it was a good pump to tear apart and learn on!
pete

Just enough power to break everything behind the crankshaft.
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Re: Exploring the great unknown,a moron and the ve

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:00 pm

That's why I bought it Pete. If it looked overwhelming,I wouldn't be out much and I could throw it away.

I'll look at it now as some spare parts. The levers,pins,bolts,pump top are all worth something to somebody,I ain't out much.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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