Allison 1000 and poor mileage

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Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby s4door » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:30 pm

Hello all. I am reaching out for some advice on where to go from here with my truck. My signature below describes what I have. About 2 years ago when my NV4500 went bad, I put a 2006 Allison 1000 in my truck. This was quite a project. My problem is mainly poor and inconsistent mileage. I average 14-15 mpg running empty normal driving. I might get 16-17 on the highway which is respectable. Towing is 10-13 depending on weight. Before the Allison, I would average 18-19 driving around and closer to 20 on the highway if I kept it under 70. Towing mpg's are the same. Towing with the Allison is MUCH better than with the NV4500 though. I am wondering if I have a problem with my VE pump. I had the pump rebuilt but it really didn't seem to help. I was running an industrial 190 hp pump with no KSB. My local diesel shop had always said try to find a pump that came on a pickup truck. They claimed that a pickup truck pump would have a better torque curve, applying power ect. I liked the idea of the KSB to help eliminate smoking when it was cold. I found a pump and had it rebuilt. I really didn't notice any difference in performance but do have a problem with the KSB. When I have the KSB wired up, the truck smokes white smoke worse than if it is not connected. I pointed this out to the shop but they can't find a problem. They checked timing with a dial indicator and said it was in the 1.32 range. A blow by test and compression test was also done. Compression all 6 within 5# of 375. Blow by test was a 9 figure which they said was way under what a worn out motor would be. Engine has around 275-300,000. It just acts like the pump isn't just right. I know several other friends that have P-Pump automatics and they all do much better on mileage. This engine always dropped mileage in large chunks when any trailer was hooked up to it. I am wondering if the additional load that the Allison 1000 is putting on this motor just can't run efficient anymore. I've tried about every fuel adjustment/ combination possible. Stock pin vs M&H pin. Timing up, timing down. Fuel screw, starwheel, AFC you name it. No difference except for performance so I keep it tuned where it runs good and has the most power since it doesn't help the mileage any tuning it to be a pig. I've been driving this truck for about 7 years so I'm pretty familiar with all the obvious tweeks that can be done to the VE. Should I try a place like Columbus Diesel to look at my pump or consider a P-Pump motor? I'll keep the truck at least another 10 years. Driven daily for personal and business use. Any suggestions would be welcomed.
1992 F350 Crew cab 4x4 DRW. 1993 5.9 with 2001 intercooler, PDR Super S300, 4" exhaust with magnaflow muffler and 12" resonator, custom air intake, cooler tubes intake horn, 3:73 gears, 235/85/16 Nitto Highway tires, 2006 Allsion 1000 6spd auto, stock injectors, M&H Stage 2 fuel pin (slightly modified)
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby spencerdiesel » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:35 pm

Truck smokes white with ksb on? The pump you found and installed, Is it a factory i/c pump? What kind of shape are the injectors in?

A lot of guys report better mpg with a manual than an automatic, but IIRC the difference is usually (variables) just an mpg or two. Highway driving with a lockup converter shouldn't be too different though.....Do you have the tow/haul set up to operate when you tow? I believe the 1000 locks the TC only in 5th in normal operation, and locks the TC in 2nd - 5th with tow haul on.

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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby DodgeFreak » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:44 pm

If it is a non ic pump the ksb advances with out the 12volts and the IC Ksb advances with 12 volts
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby DMan1198 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:36 pm

Alison's while strong due to their planetary design have the unfortunate side effect of always driving all those planetaries all the time. That'll always demand more fuel than a countershaft transmission.
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby Remps » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:54 pm

I'd guess a little honing/repopping of your stock injectors would help mileage a little, being at 300k.
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby s4door » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:43 am

Thanks for all the replies. As far as I know pump is from an IC truck, KSB is not the wax style. Pop pressures were checked on the injectors and the injectors only have around 100-150k on them since they were gone through. I program the Allison through EFI live. It is locking up just after shifting into 2nd gear around 20 mph. I've heard that the Allison robs or takes more to operate even in lockup like dman1198 said.

"Alison's while strong due to their planetary design have the unfortunate side effect of always driving all those planetaries all the time." That'll always demand more fuel than a countershaft transmission."

Are the dodge auto's different in that aspect and that's why a P-pump auto or a common rail auto still seems to get good mileage? At 55 mph my RPM's are 1650 in 5th. At 70 mph they are around 1850 in 6th. EGT's cruising at 55 on flat ground 750. Highway 950. Towing 950-1050 unless going up a long grade. It drives great, shifts nice and has good power. Truck probably weighs 8500-9000 pounds with my tools. Just never thought I'd loose that much mpg's. The KSB making it smoke worse when it's cold has me puzzled. Guess I'll try calling Columbus Diesel tomorrow. Does anyone know of a good diesel shop in the Columbus Ohio area other than them? Would a p-pump motor be more efficeint in making low end power to overcome the Allisons planetaries?
1992 F350 Crew cab 4x4 DRW. 1993 5.9 with 2001 intercooler, PDR Super S300, 4" exhaust with magnaflow muffler and 12" resonator, custom air intake, cooler tubes intake horn, 3:73 gears, 235/85/16 Nitto Highway tires, 2006 Allsion 1000 6spd auto, stock injectors, M&H Stage 2 fuel pin (slightly modified)
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby spencerdiesel » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:27 am

The VE is well suited for low end fueling and fuel economy. The p pump can do just as well, but it lacks dynamic timing and *usually* doesn't get quite the mpg a VE can.

With your truck as heavy as it is, and the planetarys Dman spoke of, 1850 rpm at 70 is pretty tall. Might could try cruising in 5th?
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

H1C/18

Fuel: THD 6x10 VCO sticks, THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw 2 turns in, timing to the head/ >1/4”
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby DMan1198 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:28 am

All of dodges autos are countershaft transmissions, so pretty much yeah.

Your egts seem a tad on the high side. Mine at 55 in top gear is sub 600
Ducati- professional nap taker, and thread derailer extraordinaire
Brownie: 80 dodge heavy half. Ghost cummins under the hood, and some sinister plans
The Roo Hunter: 93 w250, lifted, 2 whistle machines, and a bunch of other go fast goodies, uhh..... not there yet
Jaeger: 12 ram 3500. Lifted, exhausted, and fed an excessive quantity of air
The Huntress: 02 Jetta TDI. No muffler, egr, horsepower
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby s4door » Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:23 pm

I thought my EGT's were a little high too. Sometimes I'll hit 850-950 going 55 just up the slightest little country road swell. I wouldn't even call it a hill. This is at 1550-1650 rpm. It seems to be lugging a little at those rpm's . I never have boost at cruising speed either is that normal? I have done leak test and fixed a couple of intercooler connections and a bolt in the intake was loose. No improvement. As far as cruising in 5th, when towing I tow in 5th but empty if I'm around 68-72 I'll go in 6th. It gets better mpg's in six. Run's higher egt's but gets better mileage in 6th. I've also tried different gear ratio's. I've had 3:55's with 215 tires which basically nets 3:73's on a calculator. I tried 4:10's too. Pretty much no difference. 4:10's my rpm's were a little high in 5th. I'd love to get the VE set up right if something is wrong. I'd try different injectors if I knew my pump was 100%. I would like to put a Hamilton cam in it, the low rpm one (don't have the number handy). I've heard those really help low end spool and drive-ability. I'm all about good power up to 2000 rpm. Not looking for a race truck. Need it as efficent as I can. I put close to 25,000 on it last year so it gets driven daily. If the ppump would be an improvement I'd go ahead and do the cam and injectors on a different motor. IF the VE can be improved that would suit me fine. Just improve what I have. Just leary on putting more money in the VE. I have around $900 in it now along with a $600 trouble shooting bill from the same shop checking timing and other stuff to tell me everything seems normal. (Except the KSB causing it to smoke when cold) I wondered if that could cause other intermittent timing issues inside the pump.
1992 F350 Crew cab 4x4 DRW. 1993 5.9 with 2001 intercooler, PDR Super S300, 4" exhaust with magnaflow muffler and 12" resonator, custom air intake, cooler tubes intake horn, 3:73 gears, 235/85/16 Nitto Highway tires, 2006 Allsion 1000 6spd auto, stock injectors, M&H Stage 2 fuel pin (slightly modified)
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby DMan1198 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:40 pm

178/208 is the one your thinking. Mine makes 2-5psi at 50mph in 5th, and will stay under 800 degrees up to about 70 climbing smaller hills. At 75 I sit around 750-800 with almost 900 being hit on hills.
Ducati- professional nap taker, and thread derailer extraordinaire
Brownie: 80 dodge heavy half. Ghost cummins under the hood, and some sinister plans
The Roo Hunter: 93 w250, lifted, 2 whistle machines, and a bunch of other go fast goodies, uhh..... not there yet
Jaeger: 12 ram 3500. Lifted, exhausted, and fed an excessive quantity of air
The Huntress: 02 Jetta TDI. No muffler, egr, horsepower
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby s4door » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:06 pm

I never have made boost cruising. Even before the Allison. Soon as I put any fuel to mine (slight power not flooring it) I'm over 900 on flat ground. I think I need a different shop check out my pump.
1992 F350 Crew cab 4x4 DRW. 1993 5.9 with 2001 intercooler, PDR Super S300, 4" exhaust with magnaflow muffler and 12" resonator, custom air intake, cooler tubes intake horn, 3:73 gears, 235/85/16 Nitto Highway tires, 2006 Allsion 1000 6spd auto, stock injectors, M&H Stage 2 fuel pin (slightly modified)
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby PToombs » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:42 pm

I would bump the timing a little. 1.85mm of lift is a good all around setting for most types of driving according to my fuel shop. It should be about an 1/8th inch bump, since 1.32 is close to stock timing. It will help lower EGT's some since it fires a little sooner, and you should get a little more power out of it.
The way it smokes with the KSB on makes it sound like a non-IC KSB and is retarding the timing. Unless the timing is wrong, and it's so far advanced that with the KSB on it's firing after TDC?
I would try the timing bump, you can do that yourself, and if it's worse put it back. Then find a different shop for a 2nd opinion.
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Re: Allison 1000 and poor mileage

Postby s4door » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:05 pm

Yeah, I've tried advancing the timing and it doesn't help. I was leaning to what you suggested that when the KSB is on it is advancing the timing too far. That is why I had a shop actually check the timing because I was adjusting timing up and down to try to find a sweet spot. This has been going on for over a year and a half. Been trying all the tricks. Thanks for all your guys suggestions. Is it possible for the timing to vary inside the pump somehow when it shouldn't be?
1992 F350 Crew cab 4x4 DRW. 1993 5.9 with 2001 intercooler, PDR Super S300, 4" exhaust with magnaflow muffler and 12" resonator, custom air intake, cooler tubes intake horn, 3:73 gears, 235/85/16 Nitto Highway tires, 2006 Allsion 1000 6spd auto, stock injectors, M&H Stage 2 fuel pin (slightly modified)
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