Where's all the 5.9 air to water aftercoolers??

[seeker1056]

KTA dont take offense at my reply here, as it is not directed at you in any way

Now I am gonna rant...... ;o)

What can I say, I was just offering a fair warning, from experience, that plain water can an will cause issues, now or in the future. So will poor grounds.

Hmmm, many many rads n heater cores are still copper based. I know all of mine are in the five vehicles i own.

You cant compare a house system that doesnt have electrolytic issues to a vehicle that does have, at all times. And besides which your entire house system is grounded properly with a huge bare copper wire attached to a ground sunk into the ground with a ground rod, some 10-12' deep, something your vehicle doesnt have!!

In my experience, I have seen both copper and aluminum heater, and rad cores, rot out in less than six months where there were electrolytic issues and with or without glycol. Faster without glycol. The key here bein both electrolytic and water combined.

Yes aluminum can and does rot faster than copper given the right curcumstances.

As to how much glycol and the cost, as i said before in this thread, the big tank resevoir, etc. isnt needed to do an effective job of cooling, not does it do an effective job, so why bother. Too complicated, too cumbersome, too inefficient, and too heavy.

R&D - well many do it, some far better than others, and some far more intense than others, so why is one gospel over another, unless they have tested all of the ideas, back to back, like i have and do, before i open my mouth to offer an opinion?

One last thought - one should not discount anothers "been there, done that and it works" or " been there done that an it doesnt work" unless you unequivocally been there n done it "better" "YOURSELF" personally!! and can speak from experience, rather than offering second hand surmises based on "some" of someone elses R&D, or worse, on something you just read somewhere!

In closing, If one or two of you take offense at this response then likely the shoe has fit rather well.

[seeker1056]

KTA dont take offense at my reply here, as it is not directed at you in any way

Now I am gonna rant...... ;o)

What can I say, I was just offering a fair warning, from experience, that plain water can an will cause issues, now or in the future. So will poor grounds.

Hmmm, many many rads n heater cores are still copper based. I know all of mine are in the five vehicles i own.

You cant compare a house system that doesnt have electrolytic issues to a vehicle that does have, at all times. And besides which your entire house system is grounded properly with a huge bare copper wire attached to a ground sunk into the ground with a ground rod, some 10-12' deep, something your vehicle doesnt have!!

In my experience, I have seen both copper and aluminum heater, and rad cores, rot out in less than six months where there were electrolytic issues and with or without glycol. Faster without glycol. The key here bein both electrolytic and water combined.

Yes aluminum can and does rot faster than copper given the right curcumstances.

As to how much glycol and the cost, as i said before in this thread, the big tank resevoir, etc. isnt needed to do an effective job of cooling, not does it do an effective job, so why bother. Too complicated, too cumbersome, too inefficient, and too heavy.

R&D - well many do it, some far better than others, and some far more intense than others, so why is one gospel over another, unless they have tested all of the ideas, back to back, like i have and do, before i open my mouth to offer an opinion?

One last thought - one should not discount anothers "been there, done that and it works" or " been there done that an it doesnt work" unless you unequivocally been there n done it "better" "YOURSELF" personally!! and can speak from experience, rather than offering second hand surmises based on "some" of someone elses R&D, or worse, on something you just read somewhere!

In closing, If one or two of you take offense at this response then likely the shoe has fit rather well.

[KTA]

No offense taken. Now when my cooler fails I will know why. It is at least well grounded though since it is bolted to the cylinder head, maybe that will help. I can say that I personally have exploded more intercoolers from boost than I have had corrode away. Thank you for your knowledge on something I didnt know seeker.

[bgilbert]

As to how much glycol and the cost, as i said before in this thread, the big tank resevoir, etc. isnt needed to do an effective job of cooling, not does it do an effective job, so why bother. Too complicated, too cumbersome, too inefficient, and too heavy.

You don't believe in the 'big' tank resevoir in the bed? How big is your air/water cooling system?

KTA, we talked about dumping green antifreeze out at the track or dyno event, in my case, and how the EPA or whoever wouldn't like it too much. What about the RV antifreeze? Is it environmentally friendly LOL?

For the rest of you guys, the reason I ask is I would be running the resevoir full of water/AF mixture enroute to the dyno event. Then once at the event, I would drain some out of the tank to add chunks of ice to allow the water in the tank and system to COOL down.

For some reason, a 1st gen owner using the terms 'environmentally friendly' doesn't sound right . I know that old oil does wonders on weeds .

[seeker1056]

ok, cooling closed loop, vs resevoir tank style open loop systems.

With a tank no matter how large, you only have the sides and bottom of the tank for cooling exposure, and the one small heat exchanger if you use one at all.

Once the fluid your using, and water by the sound of it in this case, reaches its highest constant temp, "because of the heat sink of the thermal mass of water in the tank", it takes forever to cool down because there is no real heat transfer taking place.

So effectively you only have minutes before losing you cooling effectiveness.

Next water does not tranfer heat as well as glycol does.

So this system may work well for a run or two on a dyno, or the dragstrip, but is no good for continuous running on the street for the previously stated reasons.

You also have the opportunity to slosh fluid outa the tank, and must always add ice to have "good" cooling, albeit inefficient cooling.

So for example, this system on a long grade pullin a load, your water temps in the tank could very well exceed boiling point depending on how hot the manifold/intercooler air temps get and how much water you have in the resevoir.


So my system has no tank, and a very large surface area rad with integral dual fans and a heat exchanger that between the two, has a total surface area some 15 times larger than the intercooler core and does transfer heat 100% of the time across 100% of the system.

This system provides efficient cooling 100% of the time and as such works extremely well on the street anytime you need it, even without ice in the heat exchanger tank.

By adding ice to the heat exchanger cooler tank, i can get below ambient coolant temps without contaminating my internal glycol system. I have no fluid slosh or loss's, except melted ice should i use any.

Using an infra red heat gun, I have yet to see temps over 120 degrees in any part of the system.

[KTA]

seeker that is a good useable street setup you have built. I run a very large aluminum tranny cooler in my return water from my aftercooler to drop temps back. I have to have it at the dragstrip to keep my water temps at about 100deg. I can make a pass and in 10-20minutes it will be back to 100deg, which is fast enough for the next pass, so I am fine with it. I cant really get it to cool much below a 100 at the track because the ambient temps are always 80+ and the humidity is high, and its always on hot blacktop, so it cant cool anymore. My intake temps get no more than 120deg according to my intake pyro in a 15second run down the track, so I think it is doing a pretty good job.

[Fnschlaud4620]

I am confused, I thougt that bill only wanted to run the truck on the dyno, not on the street.

seeker1056, the system that you describe is great for a street truck but not for on a dyno.

on a dyno you want to make top HP. you need the coldest intake air temps as you can get.

that is why you need a big resivor filled with ICE and a small amount of water at the bottem.

The cold water will go into the cooler from the resivor, the water will remove the heat and be returned to the tank, melting the ice in the resivor making cold water again and repeating the process.

the key to this system is making it big enough so you sill are making cold water by the end of the dyno run, and having a pump that can move the water through the system fast enough.

If you have too small of a pump you loose cooling efficienty of your aftercooler do to the water heating at a faster rate than it can be replaced with cold.

This is how drag cars do it. When I was racing we would fill a 3 gallon resivor full of ice. the water in the -16 hoses and in the procharger 10x10x16 intercooler would start the run, heating the water and and returning to the ice tank to cool, we had a pump capiable of 70 gpm.

the racepak data logger would record the run, the temps were less than 120 deg for a 6.8 sec run

my only concern with your set up bill, is I think that a surflow 3gpm pump is too small, I have seen 12v marine pumps on ebay that will flow 40gpm for 120.00. that would do a much better job for you.

there is my 2 cents worth
fnschlaud4620

[seeker1056]

I think ya'll missed it entirely

The air/water intercooler is between my two chargers, and then I have the air/air aftercooler. Intercooler AND aftercooler

On a "three mile run" at full boost on the highway, the air/water never got over 120 degrees.

A dyno or drag run should be a piece of cake!!

[KTA]

How do you do a 3 mile run at full boost? i would be dead in 30 seconds if i tried that. I can be to over 150mph in 30 seconds. Old yellow is not fun to drive at those speeds as it feels a bit light and squirrely, I cant imagine holding it wide open any longer!!! A 40 GPM pump would be sweet, but I dont think you are going to get that much water through a 3/4 inch hose.

[bgilbert]

Yes competetion use only, not doing this for the street. Sure I will drive it on the street, but the idea of this is for DYNO purposes. I don't have a problem with this truck being called a dyno queen. I have 3 other trucks to do the other jobs this one doesn't do. If I was concerned about keeping this truck or any truck cooled for street/highway useage, I'd use an air to air intercooler. But I've done that with this 89 and the stock 1st gen intercooler is only gonna get me so far, IMO.

Good contributions though to this thread, keep em coming.

Seeker, keep in mind, KTA made 600+hp with basically the same setup I'm using. Not bad for an old beater, no offense Brian , and junkyard parts. It obviously must work to some extent. Not to mention George Peterson's pulling truck runs the same setup, not sure if identical, but I've seen under the hood and in the bed, and he has been in the top tier of trucks at many of the big events for the past few years.

[Fnschlaud4620]

A 3/4 in hose can flow around 40 it just needs a pump with enough pressure to push it, but not too much so you don't rupture the core.

see chart
http://www.jgbhose.com/Data_Returns/openenddischarge.asp

Granted 40gpm may not be necessary, but on dyno the faster you can replace the heated water with less than ambient temp cold water, the potential for bigger numbers is greater.

Not trying to say I know more or anything like that because I know I don't,
just keeping the thread going

Fnschlaud4620

[KTA]

So in reality that 40GPM pump is actually probably flowing 10GPM, which would be perfect. I need to keep my eye on EBAY for one for an upgrade for my setup.

[seeker1056]

Hey KTA, I dont know how to answer your question - my truck topped out at 3014 rpm is only doing 88 mph.

At all times goin down the road in high gear, on the pin, the truck shows full boost.

Have I missed something?

Back to the 12v bus pump - they are in hundreds of thousands of buses, and work flawlessly. They are 1" not 3/4" in/out. They are designed to flow the appropriate amount of fluid through a core assembly for proper cooling/heating.

They cost less than $80.00 brand new, and about $10.00 used.

Just curious - Why would anyone pay $100+ for a pump never intended for the use they are bein put to, like the Sureflo which originated as an RV sink water supply pump?

[seeker1056]

Hi all, after re-reading the posts, I have to say I am not arguing your tank setups?

I understand em, and have used em on my own 2.2 turbo DODGE. Yes they work very well short term, again no argument.

I am only questioning why, when presented with an alternative, and what just may be a superior setup, it is bein run into the ground as useless for dyno or drags, given nobody here, but me, has tried it out, for any purpose?????

Conventional wisdom does not always win the day!! and it is people like me, and our innovations that are outside the box, that expands the boundaries held back by that conventional wisdom.

I May not be the first to get there due to funds, but It is why I will get past 700 hp - I dont abide at all for conventional thinking and I will run unorthodox "junk" to get there

God but I am startin to sound n feel like Cowboy over on the other forum when he was puttin forward the Walbro fuel pump.

[Fnschlaud4620]

I agree, the 3/4 in hose will never allow full 40gpm of flow, but I belive that a bigger pump it will move more water through it than a surflow 3gpm.

say a full power dyno run lasts 15-20 sec. or 1/3 of a minute, Just a wild guess, and the aftercooler holds a gallon of water, the 3 gpm can only replace the heated water once.

KTA I remember you used a 6gpm pump? am I right, and I am sure your pulls are on the shorter side of the 1/3 minute so In theroy your coolant is being changed twice or more.

so the bigger the pump the more effictive the aftercooler, to the choke point of the 3/4 in hose.

Am I correct or not, cause I have been wrong before.

Seeker1056, I am not knocking you setup at all, that is how I will be doing mine too. I will use a resivor aswell though.

All I am saying is that your system can not cool below ambient or the outside temp of the air, where the ice water system can.

Fnschlaud4620