VE Tech

[oldestof11]

So I have a VE laying around, all apart. I have been trying to figure out what else can be done to help with getting big HP out of these things. People have done the 4mm camplate and the 14mm H&R but I do not think that all there is to it. These people run out of fuel and burn up the pump so they add a electric pump and a regulator BEFORE the pump and push all this fuel in at 2 points. And we still here about burnt up pumps.

So what am I getting at?

2 things...

And correct me if I am wrong on ANYTHING! This is just me looking at parts and saying "How about this?"....

I have heard that our DV are already full cut/maxed out. So I researched 2nd Gen DV and looked at the difference between full cuts over stock. Yep, we have pretty much the full cuts. So I was looking at them and BINGO! popped into my head. Instead of cutting the DV's, bore out the place where they are and add bigger DV's (keeping stock springs) thus allowing more fuel to pass through with less wear-and-tear to the pump. Anyone want to try it? CumminsKing? If it works, then this could be a easy and somewhat cheap mod ANY person could do WITHOUT tearing the pump apart.

Also with the fuel issue. We always need 15psi to help our little pump along but I see over and over again people adding pressure to ensure that at top end there is enough fuel for the pump. But how many of us always have 100% WOT when we drive our trucks. So we add a regulator BEFORE the pump and a boost referencer. What I am seeing is the fuel goes IN but NONE comes OUT! My proposal is a pump and regulator setup that gives high GPH/15psi going in and allowing it to come out. I see that when something fails, its usually the case but they have 2 inlets and no return. When we let off the throttle, where is all that extra fuel going? Its gotta go somewhere. We need to push big fuel in but also need a way for it to get out. A high GPH is what we need, NOT a high PSI. Granted they seem to go as a pair...

Clear as mud?

I can take ribbing and ridicule and like being taught.

(Donning flame suit)

Jon

[seeker1056]

The "out" is the return line on the back of the pump.

The amount of the "out" is determined by the size of the hole in that bolt that holds on the return line.

Yes the DV's are an almost full cut, and yes people have worked on holders to allow more flow. No indication there was ever any bonafide results.

I am currently experimenting with more fuel, and a larger return orifice to see if the fuel volume increases without increasing case pressure too high. This also allows the fuel to cool instead of getting heated up which contributes to pump failure so I am told.

I too beleive there is much more in these pumps, but because we were written off years ago, not many bother to R&D

Time will tell if we can get more out of the IP

[oldestof11]

seeker, what I meant by OUT is that people make the return into a feed on top of the feed thats already there. I meant by increasing GPH, it cools and still allows for a return to relieve pressure. That cant be done if 1) the return is also a feed and 2) the regulator is on the feed before the IP.

I didnt know people experimented with bigger DV's and holders.... Maybe because they didnt have the H&R or camplate that it made negligible gain over the cost to make it.

Jon

[ford69557ci]

With modded holders and larger severly cut down dv's I gained a whole 15hp rwhp along with higher egt and a ton of smoke and an erratic idle. That was with the 14mm h&r and no cam plate. It takes alot of messin around to get the dv's right something as simple as the wieght and return to seat time can have an effect on fuel timing. Spend some cash do some r&d and let us know what you find.

[dpuckett]

Jon,

I think boring out the return orifice would actualy LOWER case pressure, but I could be wrong. I think a larger inlet would help with flow and thus, cooling.

Has anyone ever had a case pressure gauge hooked up during a high load dyno run? KTA?

I think the return needs to be as big- after the "T" at the rear of the engine to the tank- as the line going from the tank to the lift pump. There is some return going from the "T" back to the IP, but I think it is negligible- the orifice limits it, and I think the higher pressure being in the case, it is more of a pressure relief than a return. Again, I could be mistaken. This is based on my observations after having my pump apart over Christmas.

I think the DVs are not the limiting factor here. Swampthang had marine DVs on his last VE'd engine, IIRC. Not sure what he gained in terms of power or MPG, but he told me 22-25 with a 4x4 auto w/o the propane fumigation.

I think you are on the right track with volume over pressure. Has anyone tried drilling out an inlet to say, 3/8" ID? I'd be game to try it once I get a new 205 pump on my shoeig rig. Do my mods, have the local shop run it on their stand, etc. Of course, you may have to wait a while- I dont plan to do this til I'm making as much in a week as my fiancee currently makes in a month.

Daniel

[ford69557ci]

The point of the return is to reduce aeration in the fuel inside the pump thats why it has such a small orifice. My pump has a -8 fitting welded to it for te inlet and I think a -8 is something like 3/8 id. Im not sure what all these grenading pumps are all about but with plenty of fuel goin to mine it has ran alot of time on the test stand and no problems have been had until I loaded it with a constant 70 psi inlet pressure and that caused the vane pump to self destruct. The reason why the people with the high hp numbers are usin big electric pumps with regulators and dual inlets is because the big fuel flow is what keeps these pumps cool, keep them together, and makes the big power.

[cummins king]

I run a 3/8s inlet drilled right to the bottom single feed and there's more then enough fuel going in.

And what would u like to know about the case pressure on a dyno run?

[fasttalker83]

I dont know alot but i can tell you this 1-is that guys are putting 30-60psi of fuel pressure into the VE (some have to have clips holding the front seal in) and 2-is you can actually run the pump without having DV's in it(ive done it myself) it makes it hard to start cuz you have to put the pressure through the whole line and not at just the DV but you can have maxium fuel flow this way but an everyday driver I would not recomend it like I said you have to have a good battery and crank on it to get fuel to the injector

[Dieselpolluter93]

Ok i have been playin around with the ve for a couple years. I am new here just never had the time for the forums. I want to share what i have found out about the ve pumps. The biggest problem that we all know about these is that they are sumped in fuel wich provides cooling and lubrication. I am currently working on a new pump that has a quite of bit of r&d into it. These are the plans for it.

First off we need to be able supply enough volume at the right pressure to the pump. The inlet pressure needs to be maintaned at 12 to 14 psi. But need to increase the volume. I am going to use a holley black and a regulator with a boost reference to adjust for fuel usage.

The discharge port of the internal vein pump needs to be ported. I will get the exact mersurment on that later. The recirc line off of the back needs to be increased the same percentage that the internal pump discharge.

Another possible solution is porting the recirc orfice more and placing an inline orfice, while allowing maximum flow for cooling and lube, maintain the internal pressure of the pump housing. The internal pressure needs to be maintained at a minimum 185 psi for proper operation. This is what i determined off the readings i took from the stock pump.

I am also working on a modified stainless steel cam plate. The stock lobe is 2.8 mm lift i am building one to 3mm so it is not as harsh on the timing issue.

Then topping it off with a 14 mm head and rotor.

This should allow you to push 300cc injection stroke all day long.

This will be an ongoing project and will keep updates on it.

Lets show them p pump and downloader guys how it is really done!

[Begle1]

Seems to me like all of the orifice talk would be eliminated through application of a pressure regulator.

Also seems to me like the vane pump, passages and front seal are the largest bottlenecks in a pump with a 14 mm head and rotor, and that could be bypassed by a belt-driven gear-to-gear transfer pump or a hefty electric one.

Also seems to me like whoever comes up with a way to have a pneumatic/ hydraulic/ electric servo acting directly on the fulcrum lever/ control sleeve would bypass all the AFC/ governor/ fuel screw/ runaway hoopla.

Also seems to me like, with a pneumatic/ hydraulic/ electro servo acting directly on the timing piston, on top of one acting on the control sleeve, and a pump bypassing the vane pump, and a regulator, we would have complete control of the VE and KNOW a given setup is maxed.

Give me a spare pump and a couple years...

[cummins king]

Perkins makes a ve style pump with electronic control. It mounts right up to our case. We have a few of them mounted on cat motors.


And it's not a vp pump

[Begle1]

That's a very interesting thing to know.

[Dieselpolluter93]

What is this give me a pump and a couple years BS. I am sorry inteligence level just dropped here. Ok the point is to max out the pump Mechanically. WHY. CAUSE ELECTRONICS SUCK AND ARE EXPENSIVE AND NOT AS RELIABLE.

Ok the point here is to reengineer. NOT to NUKE it so unless there is something constructive being typed calm down.

[Begle1]

I'm chill as a cucumber, brah... Beautiful Sunday morning it is out here in sunny Phoenix.

I'm just not a machinist or mechanical engineering type, I'm an electrical control systems engineering drop-out, so I look at things differently. (I'd also make an argument that a lot of electronic things, like fuel injectors and ignition systems, are an order of magnitude more reliable than their electronic counterparts, but that would be a hijack.)

Timing advance/ fueling actuators were also a hijack.


But, instead of keeping transfer pressure at 15 PSI in order to maintain the front seal, putting fuel in through the tiny stock inlet port and porting the vane output... Why not retrofit a much heavier gear-to-gear pump off a semi engine and use it to charge the VE case directly? It wouldn't know the difference between a VE case and an injector rail. You wouldn't need a regulator; you could still use an orifice, like is used on an injector rail. And if you had a good pump, I would imagine that it would eliminate the need for the Walbro/ Aeromotive/ piston lift pump retrofits as well.

You can get around 200 PSI out of a Detroit Diesel transfer pump with a pair of vice grips over the return orifice, right?

[Dieselpolluter93]

Sorry for getting upset did not know you where a sparky. My bad.

Ok yes you could use and external positive displacement pump to supply fuel and pressurize the case. But you would still need the return line and orfice to maintain that pressure and flow through the case. It really does not matter how you put fuel into the housing as long as you can maintain ecceptable flow through it for cooling and lube.