Maximum power and rpm

[seeker1056]

Several have asked the question whats the max hp at the moment for a VE pumped motor, however few have asked the question how the people like KTA got there.

Rather than reinvent the wheel I pose the following thoughts?

In the interests of gettin past the next hp hurdle, (700hp)would any of those in the 6's be willing to share what they did and how they got there?

For example Brian runs a 14mm pump at times, big but undisclosed injectors, how did you get it to 4200 rpm, ie spring source or mods etc.

Another example is one of my next projects - rather than change cams, I am going to advance the cam if it is possible, in order to change the valve timing event horizon, like we used to do in the gassers. This should move top end power up about 5-600 rpm. I seem to recolect that the cam n gear are one piece? maybe a newer 12V cam could be substituted as they are very cheap on ebay

The other thing that can be done for a dyno run is to tighten up the lash for slightly more lift.

I've seen the porting done by Piers, and am not impressed with bowl shape, or the finish around the valve stem, but maybe I am missing something because of the heat from a diesel.

I am in the process of building an intake similar to the Banks twin ram out of 3" mild steel tubing and i am researchin making a turbo header. However both may go out the window if I can cut a 12v head/intake like the 24v motors are bein done.

better yet would be bein able to adapt a 24v head and valvetrain onto our VE motors?

I would also be interested in anyone elses off the wall thoughts on what might be done or has been tried n failed, etc?

Thoughts?

[KTA]

My total current setup for anyone to copy.
Engine stock 1989 5.9 non aftercooled motor.
Stock Cam, no mods valve lash at .006 and .012"
head has been highly ported with good springs, retainers and keepers
Turbo Box stock Hx60 with a full on B-1 which is a 64/71mm S300 with an .080hsg through a stock 5.9 water jacket aftercooler.
Injectors Buddha Power, modified Big injectors, used to be CDS injectors both made over 600hp, Buddha are cleaner and smoother.
Timing advanced alot.
Pump 14mm old style VE, stock cam plate, cut delivery valves sometimes, no real gain, 3200rpm spring, idle and high idle screws lost. It has always turned those rpms I dont know why, nothing special inside to my knowledge.
Aeromotive fuel pump and boost refrenced regulator. 3/4" pickup in tank with 1/2" fuel feed to injection pump with semi truck fuel filter.

[Begle1]

**Psst...**
I got some good juice over here, man. Guaranteed horsepower, lower EGT's and faster spool. Real cheap and easy, too.

All the cool kids are doing it... Chicks dig it...



Drug's aside, I don't think that the Twin Ram will help much. Somebody on DTR (Jim Lane?) mounted a Banks unit on his; I think the only real modification it required was custom injection lines. But the restriction at the intake hole in the head is still there, right?

4200 RPM on the VE is supposed to be achievable with 60 pound valve springs and a modified 4200 RPM governor spring from Piers. Although I don't think spinning that fast gains anything; our pumps don't flow that far out of power band. Cam might help a little, but I don't think it'd counteract the inherent pump restrictions.

KTA:

Where do you make peak torque and horsepower?

You're running valve lash at .006? Jeepers... Isn't stock .020? You have the 60 pound springs, right?

I've heard of people getting to 4000+ RPM on the 3200 spring, but isn't that freewheeling the engine while it's defueling? (I don't know if that could be discerned without running both springs on a dyno, as the fuel would drop off after 3200 RPM no matter what's been done to the governor...)

[Rebel Ram]

I'm glad that someone asked this. I am not looking to break HP records but I do have a target. I am setting my goal at 350 reliable HP and arround 900FT/LBs. That should be enough to shock the local "Chrome Queens."
I have my KTA special on the shelf and I have PODs in the truck now. The more I read about higher HP 1st gens the less I see PODs as part of the equation. Thats OK but info on some other injectors is rare. I have looked for info on the Buddha injectors but can find nothing. Schied EDMs the same. I hate calling and just asking Q's and wasting peoples time. Most performance sites I have visited treat us VE guys like crazy uncles that you dont talk about.
I think what I would like to do and what is reasonable for me is to go with an ATS type exhaust manifold and a large single like I have on my 01. (HTB2 12-62) Some injectors that will live happily with the 14mm pump. Upgrade my fuel supply. With all that and what I have already done to that pump, the engine and trans/clutch combo, is that a reasonable goal?

[seeker1056]

My thoughts and research on the intake piping:

It takes about 1300 cfm to make 700 hp on good dense air.

You cant flow 1300 cfm through a 2 3/4 inch intake opening which is the stock style intake, give or take.

Well i shouldnt say that - at a 100 psi you might.

A three inch intake will flow 1300 at about 65 psi, but your heatin the air bad to get there and so hp falls off before you make the 700 mark.

So if your piping was large enough, then 45-50 psi will move 1300 easy and not heat the air.

It is also one of the reasons why I chose my HX 55 as the intake of the housing is 3 1/2" inside, which few other turbos of comparative size can boast.

There is much more, but you get the gist of it here

[KTA]

Peak torque 2500rpm, hp peak is about 2800rpm. No I dont have 60lb springs, I run REALLY good stuff. It doesnt free rev at 4200rpm either, its still making like 350hp. But it is way out of the powerband and virtually anything over 3500rpm is going to lose hp on a VE because of plunger fill time becoming too short.

Seeker you lost me on your whole flow deal. You are talking about you cant flow the air through a small hole yet you have an HX35 on the manifold which has like a 1.5" or 2" hole to flow all the air through. Or are you going to put that Hx55 on the manifold and run a real charger on top. Then you are in the 700hp range.

Oh and 450rwhp is easily attainable. Bill Gilbert has done it with ALL bolt on parts!!! It wasn't with POD's though. Bill has the fuel for 600, and if he dynos in Bowling Green he just might make it if Dennis Perry of TS performance gets ahold of him. Old NOS Perry has been dying to spray my truck for years, when he sees the fuel belching out of Bill's he'll be trying to IV Nos to him. LOL

[seeker1056]

NAh KTA - I didnt lose ya.

My current setup is the walk before ya run deal.

I havnt decided on what the final configuration will be. The 55 may just be a great top? But if so, what would be the bottom recommendation?

[Fnschlaud4620]

hey KTA,

the Aeromotive a1000 pump your are using makes what 45psi of pressure?

You have a boost reference regulator @1:1 I presume?

If you make 80 psi of boost on your truck, How much pressure are you sending to your injection pump under full load?

I thought I read somewhere anything over 30 psi starts to advance the pump timing. is this true?

So is this how you have A lot of timing advance?

Are you putting the fuel into the injection pumps stock location? I thought that it would leak at that high of pressure?

Can you please clear some of this up for me
thanks
Fnschlaud4620

[seeker1056]

If memory serves, Brian offered to send pix of his setup to me once upon a time last year.

Maybe he would post such here if we asked real nice, lol.

You all know what they say, one pic is a thousand words

[PToombs]

FYI-Cam and gear are seperate. The gear is a friction fit, make sure you have it where you want it when you install!

[KTA]

The cam gear is keyed. You can use vp44 ofset keys to advance or retard as necessary. My pump isnt actually an A-1000 its a pump model they dont make anymore but its almost identical to the current middle sized log style aeromotive pump. It will make up to 60 psi according to the chart that came with it. My base setting is 12psi. I then have a boost bleed in the line to the regulator so it actually goes up to about 50psi or so. I have a metal plate on the front of my pump to keep the shaft seal from pushing out. My static timing is over 24 degrees. I dont get much advance out of the pump though actually it usually retards on the dyno because the vane pump cant generate enough flow to keep up with what the 14mm head is putting out through my big injectors. The pumps really need a bigger supply pump in the VE, but they dont have one so my solution was to run dual feeds and maintain my case pressure with a second feed.

[Fnschlaud4620]

KTA,
I really appreicate you filling us in on your fuel system,

however, that it sounds a little complex for me and I dont mess with injection pumps yet,

I was thinking about using a holly black pump, it is preset at 15 psi and not using a regulator,

for a 12mm pump, and 435s what do you recommend?

Thanks
Fnschlaud4620

[KTA]

The holly will supply plenty of fuel but it wont live very long. Aeromotive and walbro are the only 2 electric pumps I have had any success with lasting. The hollys and such are designed for drag cars which see limited duty cycles and run times.

[seeker1056]

Interesting!

I went through three Walbros in the space of six months on my last truck. They would not abide a filter in front of them as required for warranty - go figure.

Gave up and went to a factory style in tank pump on that truck.

So I went with a Holly Black pump this round, on this truck.

I will keep you posted on how long it lasts.

Brian

Any chance of a pic of your setup, fuel and turbos?

Would be real interested in hearing about those "special" valve springs as well.

I have more than a few sets of heavy springs from upgrades on my previous gassers that I was gonna see if one set might work. I have several sizes and ratings. Also have titanium retainers etc.

Thanx on the offest VP44 key tip, have you done any experimentation on this? I have thoughts on two fronts - retard the timing for more bottom end, pre boost, and advancing for more top end for a power run.

However, in my experience, if a motor, any motor, is gonna run down severely at a determined point, then one needs to figure best settings at peak rather than top end. So around 2800 rpm for cam timing. Hmm, may be an interesting diversion to plot cam timing vs pump timing and set accordingly. My degree wheel, n puter are gonna get a workout shortly.

Another thing i noticed, and Brians comments may have confirmed, pumps may have idiosyncrasies, as my pump only times out or defuels in 1,2, gear and at around 2800 rpm, but in 3rd (high), and at 3042 rpm it never stops pulling, nor has it done the fall on its face like defueling causes i n 1, or 2 gear, it just sits there. I havnt put in the 3200 spring yet. Maybe mine might pull the 4200 rpm as well?

I did all of Greenleafs mods to the pump, except the foot grinding. I have no idle screws either, high or low.

Thoughts?

Does anyone know if Stomp or any other top enders might chime in here?

[bgilbert]

Thanks for the kind words Brian. I really should start saving or selling stuff for some twins with all this fuel.

Rebel, everything I have done has been bolt on as Brian said. It should get you to 450hp. Keep in mind as shown by KTA's VE, not all pumps are created the same, act the same etc. Of course reliable HP... that depends on what you call reliable. If it's towing a 28k lb trailer, I don't know how well or long my setup would stay alive. I'd say to atop the get on ramp LOL. For daily driving, cold starts, highway trips empty running etc, it's worked fine, knock on wood. But some of the 14mm pumps haven't fared so well.

As KTA has always said the biggest HP increase or best thing for a 1st gen is INJECTORS! POD's are good if you think 350hp is ok. DDP's offerings seem to have not gotten the job done either in some of the other big dog's trucks. For the price, work, tricks, and detail in these Buddha Power injectors, I don't think you can go wrong. Not to say I didn't like my Scheid injectors. But after speaking with them recently and finding out what they DIDN'T do to them etc, I could've been better off and money ahead with these Buddha injectors.

Don't waste your time on the so-called 4200rpm spring. I think PDR seen some of my comment's/posts about my R&D with a stiffer, longer higher rpm spring and how they should be ashamed for selling them to 1st genners. Shortly after some of my posts, I see they took them off their website. Of course they could just be out of them though. I ran a 3800 spring. It's stiffer, longer than stock and 366 and same length as 4200. 366 is stiffer, but the same length as stock. You have two choices how you could run a 3800 or 4200 spring. As is, or trimmed to stock length to fit properly and not possibly hang up inside as '92-Dunit's' truck was doing. I could go on, but I covered this in detail on DTR and I'm tired LOL.

As KTA said, you're not making much if any HP above 3500rpm. Look at his dyno sheets on diesel-central. His HP fell off at or around 3200rpm and he just choose to continue to run the engine out to 4200ish rpm and 200mph or so . Since he was making so much HP at 3200ish rpm, and his engine is King Kong, this is the reason he was still making 350hp at 4200rpm... SHOW OFF! Most of us can't make that at 3000rpm, let alone 4k+ .

Seeker, injectors, upgrade 1/2"ID fuel hose from tank to pump, 3200rpm spring, and then do something about your turbo(s). Then again, you might be just fine with that 55 setup, just need the fuel to do something with them.