Am I losing my mind?

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Am I losing my mind?

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:50 pm

So.........I just got off the phone with a cam builder.

We had a disagreement about timing and egt/boost readings.

I was told that - "Anytime one advances their timing, boost will go up and egts will go up."

I was like - "what? Not according to anything that I have ever been around. If one way over advances their timing their egt readings will go up, but boost always drops with advanced timing. Now if one has stock timing and does a mild advance I have seen where boost can go up due to a more complete burn".

He says - "that's physically impossible."


Have I lost it? :?:
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby DMan1198 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:39 pm

No your good
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:49 pm

To be totally honest, I have a VERY hard time buying certain products from companies that, in my eyes... don't seem to agree with some simple things.

On a side note........I'm getting really sick and tired of being told I'm a complete retard for running anything bigger than a 5x12 injector. Like I don't think anyone can understand how upset I get about it.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby cmann250 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:10 pm

Are you arguing with Hamilton?

If I understand correctly, when IP timing is advanced, fuel is squirted earlier in the piston's stroke. Therefore it has longer to burn and the cylinder EGTs are greater. By the time the exhaust gets to the manifold, where it's measured, it's cooled off some. I know advancing timing raises cylinder pressure and I could see theoretically where it'd raise boost in competition engines. i.e. applying the energy instead of blowing it out the stack.
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby ellis93 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:33 pm

You've lost it.... :lol:
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby BC847 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:20 pm

The way I figure it . . .

Our engine simply converts potential energy into mechanical energy at about a best of 35~40% efficiency (don't quote me on that number).

(Ignoring all the fine-print and speaking in broad, general terms ;) ) . . .
- Advancing the injection event timing (start of combustion event in our application), allows more time for the heat of combustion (potential energy of the fuel) to be converted to mechanical energy at the crank.
- With more heat of combustion now being converted to mechanical energy at the crank, there's less energy (in the form of heat) going out the exhaust manifold. This is illustrated by the manifold EGTs now being lower.


Turbo-chargers simply convert potential energy into mechanical, then back into potential energy. This, is illustrated by the drop in EGTs across the turbine, and an increased pressure differential across the compressor.

With advanced injection event timing, there's now less energy (lower EGT) in the exhaust gases to power the turbine, thus, less boost.


Retarding the timing, means more heat in the exhaust (higher EGTs), resulting in more power to drive the turbine, thus a higher boost.

(insert lots of fine print here).


Five of the seven voices agree. :)
David

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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby PToombs » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:44 pm

6 of the 8 voices agree! :lol: Who's the cam builder? If they don't know what they are talking about I don't think I want to buy parts from them! Funny how you lose confidence in a vendor after they tell you something you know is wrong, although, he may just be misinformed. ;)
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby DMan1198 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:09 pm

There is definitely a lot of misinformation out there. a lot of that comes from lack of first hand experience. For instance I know the basics of timing adjustment and can understand what should happen, but I haven't done it enough to be able to confidently tell people what'll happen, so I just don't
Ducati- professional nap taker, and thread derailer extraordinaire
Brownie: 80 dodge heavy half. Ghost cummins under the hood, and some sinister plans
The Roo Hunter: 93 w250, lifted, 2 whistle machines, and a bunch of other go fast goodies, uhh..... not there yet
Jaeger: 12 ram 3500. Lifted, exhausted, and fed an excessive quantity of air
The Huntress: 02 Jetta TDI. No muffler, egr, horsepower
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:11 pm

BC - I couldn't have wrote it better.... exactly what my voices say.

Pete - I didn't really want to say. I was also told that anything over 17 degrees of timing doesn't work because we spray outside of the bowl and anything over 35 psi and we float our valves.

They are a great cam company, can't think of anyone that hasn't had good results from their cams.

But, when the time comes, I'm running something else. I talked to him on the phone as well....... had good results.
Last edited by RCCUMMINS89 on Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby AHineman » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:28 pm

RCCUMMINS89 wrote:I was also told that anything over 17 degrees of timing doesn't work because we spray outside of the bowl and anything over 35 psi and we float our valves.



I'm screwed. :lol:
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:45 pm

Ya.......now, I am running 50 psi on stock valve springs = not good, not good at all.


Again.... I'm not putting down the Company. I feel they are one of the best, if not the best cam company out there for our applications. But, I just lose all faith in certain things when I am told certain things.

I also get so sick and tired of being told that EVERYTHING us ve guys are doing that makes good power is just completely retarded and we "need our head examined" (that quote is from my most favorite person ever)
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:47 pm

Oh, as a side note.

Anytime I call a vendor and looking for advise in such areas as these... I always call as a regular consumer and don't say that I am from "such and such" company. I've always felt that that is important to see how they truly think and don't hold back their opinions. I've come to find out that if I mention that I am from "such and such" that they seem to be very quite and agree no matter what I have to say...... obviously doesn't do anybody any good that way.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby AHineman » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:59 pm

RCCUMMINS89 wrote:I also get so sick and tired of being told that EVERYTHING us ve guys are doing that makes good power is just completely retarded and we "need our head examined" (that quote is from my most favorite person ever)



Who's your favorite person? :P


As for being quiet when they know you sell diesel performance parts....no one wants to share info with their competition. I don't think anyone could blame them for that. For all they know you are going to copy the product they recommend and sell if for cheaper. (even if your only intention is to run said product)
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:13 pm

Hiney - I'm sending you a pm.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Am I losing my mind?

Postby AHineman » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:23 pm

Thanks. ;)
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