Getting ready to rebuild the getrag and have a couple ?'s

[qmikep]

I’m about to rebuild the Getrag. This is the first transmission that I am going to rebuild. I have had to reseal one before but not a full rebuild. Having read the rebuild manual I have a couple questions that I hope I could get some clarification on.

The transmission has the following issues:

-Shifter vibrates violently in 3rd gear but no others.
-synchronizer noise/difficult to up shift from 1st to 2nd
-synchronizer noise/difficult to up shift into 3rd gear
-synchronizer noise/difficult to downshift from 3rd to 2nd
-synchronizer noise/difficult to downshift from 2nd to 1st
-One time on a steep incline the trans popped out of 1st gear. I had kind of “stepped on it” it has not happened since, however I haven’t tried to replicate it.

Basically I’ve been babying it while collecting parts/getting ready to rebuild it. I spoke with Craig at Zumbrota who folks seem to recommend. I described the issues I have been having with the transmission and he recommended getting the rebuild kit with bearings and synchronizing rings, and a shim kit; he advised the needle bearing are probably fine. We discussed a few other parts (I believe synchro assemblies) but I wanted to wait till I got it apart so I don’t buy things I don’t need.

The rebuild manual doesn’t seem to go very in depth about inspecting the old parts. If anyone could advise me of what I should be looking for in case I need to replace anything else it would be great.

What should I look for when inspecting the:

- Input shaft/race?
- Counter shaft?
- Counter gear?
- Main shaft?
- Gears?
- Synchronizer assemblies?
- Shift cover assembly, and forks?

I’d rather not have to pull it back out after finishing because of leaks. Is it a better idea to use RTV instead of the gaskets?

The rebuild manual says to replace snap rings and reverse idler shaft pins Is this necessary?

Also if there is any other words of advice any of you could impart I would appreciate it.

Thanks

Mike

[ellis93]

First.....buy an input shaft/gear. I will almost guarantee it has had the pocket eat into it and being the thing has no race( just the input itself) it'll be junk. It's a very common issue with this trans
Second.....do not take the collector assemblies apart,they are a pita to put back together. Just make sure that the collector rings teeth are not rounded off. Rounded teeth lead to poping out of gear.
Third.....tear it down and look at the main shaft surfaces and gear where those needles ride. If there's a little browning that's ok,never had a problem from that. Blue areas are not good,could lead to other things but also could last for a long time. Basically imho,if there's not pits or rough spots....run it.
Fourth....ultra grey silicone,very tough stuff and it won't let the trans leak. There's a rubber/steel plug that caps one end of the counter shaft bearing bore,apply the silicone to the sealing surface of that plug and smear a gob of it around the out side. Also on the shift cover,there are plugs there where the shift rails are installed thru it. Apply liberal amounts of it there as well. I also never use gaskets on these trans either. Least not on the machined surfaces,I tend to use them on the pto covers tho,with them being stamped steel and all.
Fifth..... Pay close attention to the thickness of the shift forks,how they engage the collectors ring. A little slop is ok,a lot is not. The forks will show their wear fairly easily.
I have a build tread on this trans if you need ideas.

[bgilbert]

Well said ellis, I couldn't have said it better. Mike get back on the phone with Craig and order a new input shaft, ~$90 IIRC. I won't do anymore 'customers' Getrags without a new input shaft. Or anything I plan to keep lol.

[qmikep]

Update.

So I have the getrag out and I have it apart accept for the main shaft( need to get some tools).

I had a bit of difficulty removing the counter shaft. The rear snap ring was really stuck and I ended up breaking it removing it. so I will need to get one of those. It appeared whomever rebuilt the trans last pressed the front counter shaft bearing on too far. I could rotate the small front snap ring on the shaft, the rear snap ring where it contacts the grove in the shaft was sort of bowed in towards the bearing with the “ears”(or whatever you call the little holes you put the nose of the snapring pliers in) bowed out.

I had assumed from the rebuild manual and ellis rebuild thread the countershaft would slide out relatively easy. Is the counter shaft supposed to be able to rotate inside the counter gear? Because mine did not. Is that a concern?


Interestingly the input shaft/integral race and pilot bearing would appear to have no wear. Would you guys still recommend replacing the input shaft?

So far the only part that looks bad is the rear bearing and race.

Thanks

Mike

[ellis93]

No problem with the shaft not turning in the counter,doesn't need to.

I'd still replace that input.....even on my own stuff

[bgilbert]

I normally have to beat the counter shaft out of the counter gear, so I don't know how/why it would/should rotate inside the counter gear? Although, once I've got the shaft installed, I've never checked to see if it would rotate inside the gear. FWIW, I've encountered shafts that just 'fell in' a counter gear and if left that way, would be a sloppy fit. But take that same shaft and install it in a different counter gear, and it would be a 'press fit'. Needless to say, I didn't go with the sloppy fit.

On the small shaft snap rings, I've used snap rings out of a Harbor Freight kit with no issues.

If you feel comfortable reusing the input shaft, (it could've been replaced by the previous rebuilder) and as long as you can get the bearing off of it, run it. Myself and a number of members of the "Getrag Preservation Society" have reused input shafts with no problems. I've just encountered too many input shaft '4th gear' bearings that put up too much fight trying to pull, cut, or press off. To me, time is money, and most of them need replaced anyways. BTW, if your input shaft has a part number or numbers etched in it, it's a replacement (aftermarket) shaft, FWIW.

[qmikep]

Awesome thank you both.

[qmikep]

Worlds slowest getrag rebuild update.

Just got the main shaft disassembled (things came up project had to wait).

For the most part everything looks ok. The "teeth" on the collector rings look good. Even the synchronizer rings don't look very worn(the color is different from the new ones(they are more of a silver color, is that a sign that they got too hot?).

The following are the only definite issues I've found:

1) output bearing/race are pretty screwed up the rollers and the race are gouged/pitted.

2) the "teeth"on 3rd gear are slightly rounded, noticeable more than any of the other gears.

I'm just a bit perplexed as I had the following issues:

-Shifter vibrates violently in 3rd gear but no others.
-synchronizer noise/difficult to up shift from 1st to 2nd
-synchronizer noise/difficult to up shift into 3rd gear
-synchronizer noise/ very difficult to downshift from 3rd to 2nd
-synchronizer noise/difficult to downshift from 2nd to 1st
-One time on a steep incline the trans popped out of 1st gear. I had kind of “stepped on it” it has not happened since, however I haven’t tried to replicate it.

and I figured I would find more messed up parts.

Could anyone tell me how sharp the "teeth" on the gears and collector rings need to be to affect shifting? Since this the first one I've rebuilt,I am not a great judge on the condition of the "teeth".

Is it possible that the main and counter shaft simply had to much preload, and that is what caused the difficult shifting?

Any idea as to why the shifter vibrates really violently in 3rd gear? The shift forks look great and they contact the collector rings nicely. The 3rd/4th collector/fork fit is the same as 5th/reverse, and the shifter doesn't vibrate violently in either of those gears.

I really want to make sure that this thing shifts nice and I don't mind spending a couple extra dollars just to be safe. I'm going to order a new input shaft, so if it would be a good idea to replace anything else please let me know, as I'd like to get it all at once.

Thanks,

Mike

[qmikep]

Update

Finished this a while ago haven't taken it for a test drive as I've been trying to keep it out of the snow/salt. I just took it out for the first test drive. Thankfully the shifter doesn't vibrate anymore. Unfortunately I'm still getting a bit of syncho noise shifting into third . I set the preload at .007 which is right in the middle of the spec.

Anyone have any suggestions?

The only guess I have is my clutch hydrolics are worn out and I'm getting a slight bit of drag that isn't noticable in the other gears but because of the design of the getrag is noticable in third. Also noticed it once or twice while shifting into 2nd from a stop with the clutch depressed.