M35A2 Deuce turbo question

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M35A2 Deuce turbo question

Postby matthewh » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:16 pm

So another hobby of mine is working on old military trucks. One of them in my collection is a M35A2 turbo charged multi-fuel truck.
From doing some research, it has a Switzer 3JL-319 turbo, which seems to be a S300 based turbo, 60-61mm inducer, and a 70mm hot side. I find with this truck, and others I've run, spool ok, but seem to run outta grunt after 2000-2200 rpm. After that, it's just making rpm and noise, but feels like it falls flat on it's face. I like to run mine out to 2500-2600 rpm.
Ideally, I'd like to work this one over, or change to one that will lights around 1800-2000 and keep going till 2600 or so.
I'm not a turbo guy in terms of specs, and haven't a clue what the exhaust housing size is. Any ideas how to accomplish this? It's a T4 flange, so other than trying to keep boost psi down to 10-15psi, to save head gaskets, looks like its pretty easy to slap anything on and make it work. Even the oil drain flange looks like what's on a holset off our trucks
I should mention turbos weren't added for performance, they were added as emission equipment to clean up exhaust smoke, as N/A multi fuels smoke terribly bad
'93 W350 5spd Getrag, 4.10 gears, 83k miles and counting, Mods: LPPP AKA Ma Dually
'54 Dodge M37 6.2/700R4/205, 5.89 gears, WC rear axle
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Re: M35A2 Deuce turbo question

Postby Remps » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:55 pm

Sounds like it runs kinda like my 96 with stock gov springs, it pulls harder with 1/4 throttle from about 1500-2100 rpm, than it does at full throttle above 2100. I rarely take it above 2100 as it is just noise and slowness. Is that a wastegated turbo on there? Engine specs, hp rating and injection system specs/info will be helpful to determine turbo sizing. Egt #'s would give you an idea if it is defueling, or running out of breath in the higher rpms.
'90 D250 R/C,727,IC,6x.009's,1/8" bump,fuel psi,straight pipe w/5" stack.
'90 W250 R/C,47rh,K@N,HX35,1/8" bump,2nd gen IC,boost,egt,trans temp.3.07's.
'96 2500 S/C L/B,2wd,NV5600,3.54 L/S,cai,egt,pacbrake,mbrp exhaust,10 plate.
Bring back the Bank of Canada, PRE- 1974.
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Re: M35A2 Deuce turbo question

Postby matthewh » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:56 am

Here's what I found after doing some digging,
LDT-465-1C, rated at 135HP @2600rpm, 305 ft-lb @ 1400rpm.
It's a 478 ci engine, and has a compression ratio of 27:1. While this crazy high compression ratio is god for burning different fuels, my understanding is this is also why you can't put alot of boost to the engine.
Still doing some digging on fuel rates, etc, one interesting thing I did find was the injectors, when they pop off the spray pattern is more a stream than a mist, and the deep bowls on the pistons work together to make a swirl effect in the combustion chamber.
Also, the injection pump had a fuel density compensater, which senses the density of different fuels and adjusts the pressure accordingly. They are known to go bad, which when bypassed gives you max fueling, which is controlled by your right foot. Having driven one with a bypassed FDC, it got stupid hot quick, egt wise.
I haven't installed a pyro yet, as mines down with brake issues, but I'm hoping to get one installed, ans get some data to see where its falling off at, how hot etc. Another observation, at least on other trucks, is in "stock" form, with everything working, they do smoke abit, and seem like they could use more air. On my buddies truck, his "new" engine is stock, FDC working correctly, injectors reset and popping off correctly, valves lashed to spec, and his is a dog, with warm egt's. It's pretty easy to poke 1200* just driving normal, unloaded shifting threw the gears. Kinda how this interest in a new turbo came about, trying to jam more air in without compromising the reliability or spending a bunch on engine mods,
'93 W350 5spd Getrag, 4.10 gears, 83k miles and counting, Mods: LPPP AKA Ma Dually
'54 Dodge M37 6.2/700R4/205, 5.89 gears, WC rear axle
matthewh
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Re: M35A2 Deuce turbo question

Postby Remps » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:34 pm

An sxe 364.5/74/.91 or 1.00 T4 would push 20-30 lbs/min more than your current turbo. Either turbine housing would likely require an external gate. I put some of your specs into Borg Warners "match bot" , and the 64.5 looked best with a bit of air to spare. 62 was on the right edge of compressor map. Mind you, I was guessing at some of the parameters.
'90 D250 R/C,727,IC,6x.009's,1/8" bump,fuel psi,straight pipe w/5" stack.
'90 W250 R/C,47rh,K@N,HX35,1/8" bump,2nd gen IC,boost,egt,trans temp.3.07's.
'96 2500 S/C L/B,2wd,NV5600,3.54 L/S,cai,egt,pacbrake,mbrp exhaust,10 plate.
Bring back the Bank of Canada, PRE- 1974.
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Re: M35A2 Deuce turbo question

Postby DMan1198 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:48 pm

Considering the 73/.91 turbine side when on a 359ci cummins has been pushed to 950whp without choking I wouldn't bother with an e-gate on a 478ci engine making less than 300.; A 64sxe would be a nice choice though.
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Re: M35A2 Deuce turbo question

Postby matthewh » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:09 pm

What does the .91 mean in terms of the turbo? I get the first number is inlet compressor size, second the exhaust compressor size, but what is the .91? Usually see the 3rd number as exhaust housing size.
Right now were "bench racing" this theory of a better turbo. Ideally we'd like to find something used and mess around with it.
The numbers do help in comparison of what we have laying around, or what to look out for.
'93 W350 5spd Getrag, 4.10 gears, 83k miles and counting, Mods: LPPP AKA Ma Dually
'54 Dodge M37 6.2/700R4/205, 5.89 gears, WC rear axle
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Re: M35A2 Deuce turbo question

Postby spencerdiesel » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:55 pm

Last night a buddy at school was more than nice enough to let me drive his m35a2. The sound out of that pipe still rings in my brain :D

Sorry for the useless sidetrack, carry on :shock:
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

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Fuel: THD 6x10 VCO sticks, THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw 2 turns in, timing to the head/ >1/4”
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Re: M35A2 Deuce turbo question

Postby matthewh » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:55 pm

Mines got the "C" turbo, also known as the Whistler, for obvious reasons. It's cool, but long trips gets annoying. The "D" turbo is supposed the best, buddy has one pushing 15psi, which is pretty good. Haven't driven his since the engine swap.
Lots of hills and long grades its fun to get into it and let it sing, plus its a crowd favorite during parades
'93 W350 5spd Getrag, 4.10 gears, 83k miles and counting, Mods: LPPP AKA Ma Dually
'54 Dodge M37 6.2/700R4/205, 5.89 gears, WC rear axle
matthewh
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:07 am
Location: Boyne City Michigan
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Re: M35A2 Deuce turbo question

Postby Remps » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:31 am

My thinking is if my little 5.9 can hit 10 psi in neutral with an hx35, a 478 ci, 27:1 compression engine under load at 2600 rpm might possibly have trouble staying under 15 psi under full load without a wastegate. I could be wrong, there might not be an overboosting issue with that 64. A .70 ar turbine housing is approximately equal to a 12 cm housing, a .80 ar = about 14 cm, a .91 ar T4 = somewhere between 17-19 cm? I think the measurements change when going from t3 to t4, meaning a .80 t3 has less turbine internal volume than a .80 t4. I'd imagine that a compressor in the 63-66 mm range would be a decent upgrade from what you have.
'90 D250 R/C,727,IC,6x.009's,1/8" bump,fuel psi,straight pipe w/5" stack.
'90 W250 R/C,47rh,K@N,HX35,1/8" bump,2nd gen IC,boost,egt,trans temp.3.07's.
'96 2500 S/C L/B,2wd,NV5600,3.54 L/S,cai,egt,pacbrake,mbrp exhaust,10 plate.
Bring back the Bank of Canada, PRE- 1974.
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