What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

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What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby Node » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:26 pm

Like the topic says. I am interested to hear what anyone has to say on the subject.

What makes a 1st gen cummins more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen cummins?

I've heard they both have KDP issue.

My friend told me that you don't need an alternator or battery power (i.e. electrical power) for the mechanical 12v 1st gens to run and operate.
Is this true of 12v second gens as well? They are diesel (I.E. compression combustion, no spark plug) and mechanical injection.

How do the axles / transfer cases differ from 1st gen to 2nd gen.


Thank you everyone for your input.
Looking forward to getting a cummins some day.
-Ben
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby ellis93 » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:47 pm

Both pumps are dependable and it is true that both will run with no voltage goin to them. The body and insides are garbage on the 2nd gen ,the dash falls apart and the gauge bezel cracks up. The transmissions are (in my opinion) better than in the 1st gens(that's why people get the nv4500s and 47rh's out of the 2nd gens). The 1st gens have ignition switch,head light,a/c and spring issues.
In all, I'd take my 93 over the newer ones. People say the getrag 360 is trash but mine is goin strong for 105000 miles. They just need lots of oil changes and somebody that doesn't speed shift or lug them.
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby fatty » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:09 pm

ellis93 wrote:The body and insides are garbage on the 2nd gen

They aren't much to brag about on 1st gens either.
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby ellis93 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:08 am

At least the dash stays in one piece. Line up 5 and 3 will be busted.
Guess I should say that this is what happens here on the coast and that I don't know about the rest of the U.S.
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby ahale2772 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:57 am

my dads 02 has ate 2 track bars up front, i like the leaf springs on the front of my 89, in general the first gens are just a bit more simple, the motors are essentially just as reliable, besides the fact that ive had some hard starting issues in our busses with ppumps, my 89 starts right up
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby Node » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:47 pm

How are the brakes on 1st gens?
How easy to change?
What are downfalls in this dept.
Can later model year brake bits swap on?

Steering
Big Solid axle dana 60, so I assume similar to my friends j10 jeeptruck. I think his is dana 60/70 w/ 360cid gasser

Is death wobble a 2nd gen ram issue only?

I know that the 2nd gen has 2x batteries. Does it run a 24v electrical system or just run them in parrallel for extra starting power?
anybody ever add a 2nd battery to a 1st gen?

I live in a mountainous area and would love to have an exhaust brake. Does that rule out option of a 737 automatic ram?
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby BILTIT » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:05 pm

Node wrote:How are the brakes on 1st gens?
How easy to change?
What are downfalls in this dept.
Can later model year brake bits swap on?

Steering
Big Solid axle dana 60, so I assume similar to my friends j10 jeeptruck. I think his is dana 60/70 w/ 360cid gasser

Is death wobble a 2nd gen ram issue only?

I know that the 2nd gen has 2x batteries. Does it run a 24v electrical system or just run them in parrallel for extra starting power?
anybody ever add a 2nd battery to a 1st gen?

I live in a mountainous area and would love to have an exhaust brake. Does that rule out option of a 737 automatic ram?


2nd gen uses two batteries in parallel.

My first gen has a second battery added on the frame on the passenger side under the bed in front of the wheel.

Death wobble applies to any dana 60 front end. Seems to be an issue with some king pin styles (chevy and dodge) not sure about ball joint styles.
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby ellis93 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:29 pm

Old super duty fords 97 and back did the same wobble thing. I think that almost everything with a solid axle does it.
The two batteries are hook together to up the cranking amps. Cold areas could use two but u can pick up a battery that has 1300 cranking amps.

The brakes on 1st gens are ok. The fronts are fairly easy to change. The rears are more of a pita to change because the drums mount to the inside of the hub. I think that some of the 2nd gens are the same way. Did a rear brake job on a 98 two days ago and it had outboard drums( mounts on the outside of the rear hub)so it was lots easier to do.
As far as up grades. Some take the rear disc setups and install them. I've seen were others have installed the hydro boost systems on as well.
I have not dealt with the ex brakes. So I will be no help there.
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby ahale2772 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:45 pm

i think the death wobble hes talking about is the trackbar issue, a quarter inch of play on the track bar mount on the 2nd gen axle will make the front end go nuts, this summer my buddie had his truck death wobble when i was behind him each tire was coming off the ground 1/2 foot, he had brand new shocks and recent ball joints. i though he blew both front tires
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby ahale2772 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:47 pm

...and no you will not be able to run a brake on a 727 auto truck
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby PToombs » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:03 pm

Remove and throw away the ABS valve on a 1st gen and you'll have the best brakes ever.
pete

Just enough power to break everything behind the crankshaft.
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby dpuckett » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:49 pm

ellis93 wrote:....The transmissions are (in my opinion) better than in the 1st gens(that's why people get the nv4500s and 47rh's out of the 2nd gens).

The only thing a 47RH has over the 518 is a lockup convertor. It's still a Dodge POS automatic that costs 2-3 grand to set up behind a diesel.

I'll take a Getrag over an NV4500 any day.
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby ellis93 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:06 pm

I'll swap you a Getrag for a 4500 :mrgreen:
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby bmoeller » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:42 pm

BILTIT wrote:Death wobble applies to any dana 60 front end. Seems to be an issue with some king pin styles (chevy and dodge) not sure about ball joint styles.


Yes, the ball joint styles have it as well. Probably a better chance of it without having leaf springs. Those axles have coil springs, control arms and because of such, track bars to keep them aligned. When the ball joint on the frame end of the track bar goes south (and no steering stabilizers), it can happen more often. I'm running a 3rd gen track bar (all poly bushings and no more ball joint on the newer bars) and a steering brace to tighten things up. The steering boxes are very similar, if not the same. Want to make a steering brace for my steering box as well, as the bushing in it is getting sloppy too.

The 2nd gens also have a tendency to kill and/or warp the left front brake rotors. But I think a lot of that has to do with dirty brake fluid. Brake pull isn't much of a problem after I flush the old stuff out.

2nd gens have heavier axles. And the rears use an hybrid Dana 80 on the 3/4 tons and the full 80 on the duallys.

The '97 and up trucks have hydraulic brake boosters vs the vacuum boosters. Better braking power, but still drums in the rear til late '01 when they switched to 4 wheel discs.

The VE and P pumped engines (89-98.4) are pretty much both bulletproof. It is the VP44 pumped trucks that are more prone to fuel injection system issues (largely because they aren't cooled or lubed by oil. Fuel only. And, the factory lift pump is a POS. The Cummins parts are still great though (minus the 53 block and the '98 or 99 and older timing cases with the KDP issue.) Later ones have an updated case without that problem.

The p pumped engines can make more power, more simply than even the VE can, before needing to go to a pump shop to be flowed.

Over all, the 1st gens are much easier to work on, than the later trucks. A lot more room to work on most things. They did make some changes under the hood on the 24v 2nd gen trucks that makes quite a few things easier to get at than even my '97 was.
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Re: What makes 1st gen more reliable than a 12v 2nd gen?

Postby Subliminal » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:22 am

My favorite thing about the dreaded 'Death Wobble' is that everyone thinks they owned it. When I was playing with 1st gen Ford Lightnings, which have a double wishbone front suspension, I first heard the phrase. Then it went with me through several other manufacturer/models before I came to own my current CTD.

Death Wobble is just an unfortunate series of issues which lead up to a vehicle behaving badly. Your balljoints go, which ruin your front bearings, then you start wandering and your tie rod ends get all loose...lol.

1st gens are definitely easy to work on. Heck, you can even see the rear valve cover with the hood open! ;)
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