Billit VE

[Ramrod90]

I was talking to my buddy who is a prodigy as a machinist. We were throwing around ideas about milling out a billet VE case. the thing is, I am tinkering with double pumping it using either a crank driven LP or a twin fass setup. the problem I cant get past is we were going to eliminate the entire gearator pump in the front of the case and instead have some sort of spacer puck with a series of passages in it so as to route all the fuel directly into the head allowing us to run an upwards of 150 psi lift pressure. The entire project is very young and still just graphite and paper but I was hoping some of the VE guru's would step in and lend a hand with some ideas on what to change internally. Another thing is, would it be possible to use the stock top half of the pump or would that have to be billit as well. I posted this topic on cumminsforum and didn't get a single reply so I figued the gurus on this forum would have something to say. If this works out I should be able to get a few others made for sale and whatnot.

[ahale2772]

whats the plan on making the pump handle 150psi? i think the pump top would definitly have to be billet too problem is the entire ve is designed for low low lp pressures ...

[Begle1]

The pump top seals case pressure, which is around 150 PSI while cruising down the road and can be 300-400 PSI at high RPMs.

After the vane portion, the pump can live with 400 PSI; it'd be hard to find electric pumps capable of reproducing the functionality of the vane pump. I think you'd need whatever is the step above a FASS or Aeromotive to do away with the vane pump entirely.

Why you'd make the pump billit, I don't know, unless you're trying to make a pump that'd accept a 16mm head and rotor or 1000 PSI of case pressure from a small hydraulic pump. If you wanted to do away with the vane pump bottleneck, it'd probably be a better R&D path to seal off the vane pump from the inside, remove the vanes, and feed the pump through the shut-down solenoid hole or bypass hole with a regulated high pressure (gear driven) fuel supply.

[Ramrod90]

The reason I was going to go billet is because the 14mm h/r has such close tolerances, I figured all the extra support around it as well as the same expansion/contraction reactions would allow for high rpm without worrying about seizing the h/r and the extra strength should allow for the use of the 14mil. head and the 4mm cam-plate together. Am I wrong in thinking this? I would like it to handle the crank driven mechanical lp used on the Scheid puller. I think there are a lot of people who could utilize a gutted billet VE case to make more power than I could, I am just talking mainly about the case itself. Instead of just making an identical VE case, what are the internal modifications that could be done to promote the production of power/cc's/longevity of the pump itself under those conditions.

[Ramrod90]

whats the plan on making the pump handle 150psi? i think the pump top would definitely have to be billet too problem is the entire ve is designed for low low lp pressures ...

True, it is designed to handle low Lp pressures. That is due to a weak front seal and many internal restrictions. My plan revolves around cutting out those restrictions through making a VE case of my own with provisions that eliminate every short straw the VE pulled other than the size itself. There is a lot of fuel to be had out of these pumps but due to the restrictions, most of it is a thing to dream about.

Is it possible to get a 16 mil. head made?????? That would be sweet!

I would like to do something to advance the capability of first gens and get them back in the race. All i'm asking is for people to tell me what sort of restrictive pieces could be done away with or just opened up.

[ahale2772]

what restricts going ne biger than a 14 is the clearance with a billet pump u got go as big as u want i would pay money to see someone kickin there self after gettin beat by a stinkin ve

[Ramrod90]

Well, that is what I need to find out. I have a Rockentech 14mm right now so I may hit them up and see what they can do and how bad it will drain mu bank account.

That is a key motive in all this, to make the VE a contender.

Can anyone guess what a free flowing 16mm VE would put out as far as cc's? I may very well stick with a 14mm bebcause I am not sure that potential has been reached. I have never heard of anyone calling their 14mm h/r " the reason they didn't get the hp/tq numbers they wanted.

I just want a big ars pump but to be honest this is more a venture for reliable power than just for power. It is going on a DD/track truck so reliable power is a big thing for me.

[IowaCummins]

what restricts going ne biger than a 14 is the clearance with a billet pump u got go as big as u want i would pay money to see someone kickin there self after gettin beat by a stinkin ve

i agree! i love when those new guys think there new trucks are fast and then the look on there face when they catch up to ya at the end of the race is priceless. i won $50 the other day from a guy who said he could beat me cause my truck was an old pile of a farm truck. he actually manned up and gave me some reaspect after lol

[seeker1056]

from my experiences with the 14mm pump

the bottle neck is the amount of fuel that can be got into the head itself with a rotating piston assembly

Even with an edm'ed 14mm head assembly my pump just barely made 435 cc's at the top of its game which unfortunately wasnt very long.

The internal pump is likely non essential as it is a holdover from the stationary engine days.

A good external pump could quite likely negate any need for the internal blade pump.

In order to play with the serious dual cp3s and p-pumps you need to be able to make at least 550 cc's or more for fuel. With many of the more serious boys usin 13mm p-pumps and 6-800 cc's of fuel the VE is at best a good local stock or street stock type venture.

Tis why we are switchin to a serious P-pump for next year.

[Ramrod90]

I compleatly agree. Anything that anyone ever does to the VE has been done to p pumps and being a much larger pump, it will make more power. But that does not deter me from trying to realize what can be done for VE's. If KTA can get close to 700hp with a 14 mm, I should be able to make close numbers with the affore mentioned mods. I am not going to claim anything in the way of power output or superiority untill it's pumping.

[Ramrod90]

I have been unable to find a lift pump that will meet or exceed my needs so I have begun thinking outside the box. I have located a hydraulic pump that is a little smaller than the VE itself but puts out some serious pressure. At 2600 rpm it can push 650 psi at 12gpm. At 800 rpm it puts out around 210 psi. I think this would be a great way to get the fuel into the head. What do you fellers think?

[ahale2772]

sounds pretty good ur in uncharted territory so ull have to do stuff like that...i know some guys with vp44s were running pully driven lps ...

[ford69557ci]

I was running a belt drivin pump from glacier diesel and I think it can be ramped up to 250psi and that is plenty. What needs to happen for those kinda pressures coming in the main inlet is the seal issue figured out. The problem with the 16mm rotor is the wieght of the rotor and the wieght cuases it not to return fast enough without killer heavy springs and killer heavy springs puts tons of pressure on the cam plate and rollers and causes failure. Also Aeromotive makes some pro mod belt drive pumps that can supply 300psi and enough fuel for a 3500+ horse alcohol or nitro motor.

[bgilbert]

IMO I would concentrate more on the proven 14mm kta H&R and TUNING. That's where its all at, the tuning. With a completely stock motor and intercooler, minus turbo's, injectors and a 14mm kta H&R I'm doing 556rwhp with a ton of unburnt fuel left at WOT. My guess, with tuning, possibly head work, and much more efficient intercooler I'd be knocking on kta's door.

[seeker1056]

if you look at say, a frieghtliner - they have a hydraulic pump in place of the vacumm/power steering pump.

I am sure that with a releif valve installed to the desired pressure you could have any pressure/volume you wish for fuel

Then mount a 2000+ power steering pump on the other side of the motor.

me thinks that no matter what you do yuor still gonna be a few hundred cc's of fuel short, to take on a good P-pump motor

But hey - I been wrong before