6.7 C/R to VE conversion OBSERVATIONS.

[Mark Nixon]

A little update on this situation.

I did finally aquire a complete '01 VP head and a hurt 5.9 shortblock.
I eyeballed the injector protrusion, and come up with the fact that the injector protrusion is closer to the bowl on the VP.
I could shim them shallower, but I doubt there would be any physical interference.
I also compared piston bowls between the VP 5.9 and the 6.7, the 6.7 uses a bowl that has a broad chamfer at the top of the dish, which tapers smaller (funnel-shaped), but appears to be slightly larger at the bottom of the bowl, than the VP 5.9 bowl is.
The 2 engines also use the same length of pushrods.

So far this is looking very doable without much more than some minor machine work.

Mark.

[mog1300]

I had an 2009 12 valve 6.7L with the VE pump sitting in my shop. The 6.7L is available from Cummins with the VE pump, so I do not see an problem to do it on the C/R 24V 6.7L Cummins. The VE pump is-was used (automotive) from the beginning of the B series until now ! Here in Europe Cummins always used the VE (some low performance ones with Lucas junk) , also VE in 180-210hp (5.9L) versions.

[Subliminal]

Mark, you need to get this done! Someone will eventually do it, but I think it should be you and I think it should be now.

[Douglas]

I had an 2009 12 valve 6.7L with the VE pump sitting in my shop. The 6.7L is available from Cummins with the VE pump, so I do not see an problem to do it on the C/R 24V 6.7L Cummins. The VE pump is-was used (automotive) from the beginning of the B series until now ! Here in Europe Cummins always used the VE (some low performance ones with Lucas junk) , also VE in 180-210hp (5.9L) versions.

Any chance you could put up part numbers for timing cover and case for the 6.7? Sounds too good to be true...
cheers,
Douglas

[Mark Nixon]

I had an 2009 12 valve 6.7L with the VE pump sitting in my shop. The 6.7L is available from Cummins with the VE pump, so I do not see an problem to do it on the C/R 24V 6.7L Cummins. The VE pump is-was used (automotive) from the beginning of the B series until now ! Here in Europe Cummins always used the VE (some low performance ones with Lucas junk) , also VE in 180-210hp (5.9L) versions.

Any chance you could put up part numbers for timing cover and case for the 6.7? Sounds too good to be true...
cheers,
Douglas

I'm betting that it won't matter, because the block is likely machined differently to mount the cover on.
Cummins is a lot like any other manufacturer, they don't tend to modify a design unless it's necessary to do so and they'll keep a simpler design around as long as it's useful in other applications.

The C/R and 6.7 timing case bolt pattern is actually a relatively new design, so it would stand to reason that it's applications may be limited.

Mark.

[1stgenblowingsmoke]

Any progress?

[mhuppertz]

I have to commend you Mark for this thread. This is the kind of research that defines a true American!

[Mark Nixon]

Sorry there hasn't been any progress on this.
I sold the guinea pig 6.7 I was basing these observations off of, but I am trying to acquire another to actually modify and use in a truck at some point.

Mark.

[Mark Nixon]

Bumping this up.
I've been very busy here lately, trying to come up with an injector combination that will allow me to run some form of 24 valve mechanical injector in this 6.7 I am wanting to build, and here are some of my recent observations and a conclusion or 2.

First, I started with the basics of what I have to start with, where piston bowls and spray angles are concerned.
I came up with this list below to be true about Cummins' emissions compliant pistons and injector spray angles.

The 6.7 2007.5- 2010 piston bowl has a 146* bowl.
The 5.9 2003-2004 piston bowl has a 143* bowl.
The 5.9 2004.5-2007 bowl has a 124* bowl.
The 1998.5-2002 24 valve (VP) has a 153* bowl.
The 1991.5-1993 VE AND P-Pump 12 valves both have 145* bowls, respectively.

Now, considering that I'm wanting to do a MECHANICAL (VE) injected 6.7 24 valve engine, I can't use ANY of the injectors from 2003-up and the VP injector is the wrong spray angle to burn clean, so I do some investigating, by tearing down injectors, with the aim being towards USING the VP injector.
I tore down a 6.7 injector, TOTALLY different design ("disc style"). That won't work.
I tore down the '04.5-'06 5.9 injector, similar to the VP, but no pintle "guide". Same with '03-'04. Still No Dice.

So I've already torn down the 24 valve based injectors and struck out on the spray angle (153*)and later tips and internals won't work, due to the VP injectors having a "pintle guide".
Then I remember that the PODs (160* spray angle ) I tore apart a while back had the "pintle guide" on them.
THEN I remembered that the P-pump injector is similar to the VE injectors and, coincidently, has a 145* spray angle.
So I take apart an old 12 valve injector and lo and behold, IT'S THE SAME BASIC DESIGN AND DIMENSIONS AS A VP TIP!

By that I mean, the nozzle guides, supply hole, outer nozzle diameter, height of the nozzle itself, it is ALL the same, right down to the protrusion through the tip's collar.

So, my conjecture is that I can run a VP injector body, with a P-pump (or VE) tip, set to the VE pop pressures, to achieve a mechanical 24 valve injector with a 145* spray angle.

Don't even ask me how many hours it's taken me to gather all of this info and parts up, it's bunch!

Mark.

[Tacoclaw]

So, just to check, don't VPs and CRs have injectors that protrude into the center of the head? And the 12v injectors come in at an angle. Wouldn't a 12v tip have a funny angle to it if it was stuck in from the middle of the cylinder?

Or am I thinking wrong? (I hope I am)

[Mark Nixon]

So, just to check, don't VPs and CRs have injectors that protrude into the center of the head? And the 12v injectors come in at an angle. Wouldn't a 12v tip have a funny angle to it if it was stuck in from the middle of the cylinder?

Or am I thinking wrong? (I hope I am)

No, you're thinking right.
Never thought of that part, dammit.

Looks like a customized (larger) bowl, or really thin washer is going to be the solution.

THANKS for pointing this out!!!

Mark.

[Tacoclaw]

I feel like Pete, what with all the negativity.

What are you using the engine for? If its a normal rpm setup you might not notice the spray angles too bad. People use PODs in the 145* 12v's all the time.

[Mark Nixon]

It would be a grunter, for low end up to ~3200 RPM, max.

The 6.7, as with the Commonrail 5.9, uses a unique bowl design, where there's a slight ramp into the bowl, which is NOT figured as part of the bowls's angle.
The pistons sort of look like a "double-dish", if you will.

Tacobell, you're right, I may be worrying the details, since the VE engines worked "okay" with a 160* nozzle on a 145* bowl, (15* total difference), why wouldn't a 146* bowl with a 153* injector (7* difference) work as well?
Especially since the injector is shooting at a straighter shot to the bowl in a 24 valve.

Still, I'm going to ask a machine shop about opening the bowl diameter @ .100" to be safe.

Mark.

[Dieselwrencher]

The spray angle on the 12v nozzles is angled to compensate for the injector angle. Just use VP nozzles. I know a guy who knows a guy. LMAO!

[Mark Nixon]

A little update here.

Pretty much have the timing case mounting issues figured out, just need to pull the trigger and do the markout to drill and tap the holes.
Before I do this, though, I'm going to do one more final mock-up with a 5.9 crank and 12 valve cam to dial in the gear backlash prior to actually locking in the bolt pattern, this way I can make corrections to the lash at the injection pump gear before I drill for the dowel locators.

Doing some physical hands-on research, I found that there is no SIMPLE way to use either a 5.9 commonrail or 6.7 head with the VP injectors.
While the VP injector WILL fit into the 6.7 head, the connector tubes for VPs will not fit the bore since they bottom out long before actually seating into the injector.
Using the 6.7 connector tube would necessitate custom lines and I'm trying to do this with as little cash outlay, yet with as many "stock" parts as possible.
The best course of action is to simply use the VP head and, since the 6.7 uses a siamesed bore, drill the steam holes using the 6.7 head gasket as a template.

Then there is the oil pan dilemma!
As soon as I can FIND one, it's going to end up basically being a commonrail pan, with the nose lopped off and a 12 valve/VP nose welded on.

Here's a listing of some of the parts that I have figured will be in this engine:

2007 6.7 shortblock.
2nd gen VP top end, everything from rocker cover to head gasket, all VP.
VP fuel lines (More on this "trick" later).
Tubular header, VP era, of course (The only "frivolous" part, so far).
VE timing case, pump, gear, crankshaft gear and cam gear.
1stgen I/Ced pullies, A/C compressor mount.
VP upper alternator mount and water/thermostat neck.
EARLY 3rd gen auto./5 speed block plate.
Getrag era clutch, flywheel and P/P.

I'm actually on the fence as to whether to run a Commonrail cam, or run the VP or 12 valve cam.
It would be a viable thing to change, from a gear swap standpoint.

Hopefully I'll have some pics to illustrate some of what I'm doing, here soon.

Mark.