Been doing some testing............................

How to make it go fast

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Been doing some testing............................

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:47 pm

Ok, after doing about 200 launches, speed tests, driveability, going over passes, pulling loads..................................................I've come to an inclusion.............................................

Our timing, for best overall driveability HAS to be ran off of fueling/boost.

I can take my truck and run my timing where it will literally give you whiplash at 1/4 throttle ocming off the line. I can make it give you whiplash at 30-40psi............... but my findings are my rpm has absolutely nothing to do with it. I'm simply shifting my power through my fueling range.

Many people get caught up in the "need more timing with rpm" which is true, but the reality is 1000rpm to 3000rpm is not very much of an increase.

The more fuel, the more timing required.......it's as simple as that. In stock form our trucks are designed to go from 10cc (or whatever it takes at an idle) up to about 80cc...............I'm not asking it to go from 10cc to 280cc(or whatever my pump puts out)

Through my various testing..................on my mess I need approximately 16 degrees of sweep (Turboram was right)



Through my various testing............my truck performed the best when I set it at 1/8" bump at idle, and then loosened up the adj. timing spacer to a slack state...........then tightened it up half a turn. This would make my truck miss and sputter at about 1400 rpms in neutral.

When it was set up like that, my truck would BLOWthe tires off at like 1/2 throttle, more and I wouldn't go anywhere..............this was at 0psi boost just rolling at 5 mph.............but the problem was it would fall on it's face at 30psi. I mean literally would fall on its face.

Now, if I upped the timing to where it would act the same at 30 psi and up..............my truck would surge and buck and was undriveable when I was just driving around normally.

The ONLY way to overcome this is to set timing up on a boost controlled way. Because when I had things set up at the low timing it would drive ok even at high rpm and light load.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby Deathrod » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:19 pm

Soooooo are you saying there isn't a good way to set it up because there isn't a way to adjust timing with boost pressure?? Or did I totally read it wrong?
1930 Model A, 91 non i/c, he351ve over ht3b, bagged all around, mostly built 47rh, 72 lpm sticks, 600hp/1400 ft lbs (cummins math), just needs traction
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:24 pm

What I'm saying is there is only so much adjustment one can do.

When one runs as much fuel as some of us, we need more.

As of right now our timing ONLY adjusts from case pressure.............we can adjust that sweep, but our timing essentially works backwards when we run 400+ hp worth of fuel.

We need our timing to work as fast and as efficiently as the boost can come on.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby turboram » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:38 am

If timing were to follow rpm somewhat and boost there would be a exelent benefit ,the ve would give the flat power curve of a common rail engine .....which by the way they run better with 30+ deg of timing sweep
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:15 am

I was thinking last night.....

Nick............an external pump to control case pressure that is controlled via a boost pressure doo dad would make it the easiest.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby adcotton » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:00 pm

Soo run a line to the case from a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator?
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby Remps » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:04 pm

It could/has been done, need a pump that can make at least 250 psi, ideally.
'90 D250 R/C,727,IC,6x.009's,1/8" bump,fuel psi,straight pipe w/5" stack.
'90 W250 R/C,47rh,K@N,HX35,1/8" bump,2nd gen IC,boost,egt,trans temp.3.07's.
'96 2500 S/C L/B,2wd,NV5600,3.54 L/S,cai,egt,pacbrake,mbrp exhaust,10 plate.
Bring back the Bank of Canada, PRE- 1974.
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby cougar » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:13 pm

I'll just throw this out there. Instead of controlling case pressure, why not control the timing piston's travel through varying the spring tension. Most of us are familiar with the M&H dynamic timing device. It includes a cap spacer and a washer. Modify the cap so you can put a threaded rod and a seal in it, kind of like a fuel pin. The inside end of the rod will push against the washer. As you turn the rod, you will be changing not only the preload on the spring but the amount the piston can travel. Attaching a lever to the rod connected to a pneumatic cylinder run by regulated boost pressure and I think you're close. Fine tuning required of course.
RIP 91.5 W250 5 speed. The great experiment.
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby oldestof11 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:28 pm

Or a small Bimba air cylinder with a seal around the shaft and a regulator to the air inlet side. Most full stroke at 15psi
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby BC847 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:07 pm

cougar wrote:I'll just throw this out there. Instead of controlling case pressure, why not control the timing piston's travel through varying the spring tension. Most of us are familiar with the M&H dynamic timing device. It includes a cap spacer and a washer. Modify the cap so you can put a threaded rod and a seal in it, kind of like a fuel pin. The inside end of the rod will push against the washer. As you turn the rod, you will be changing not only the preload on the spring but the amount the piston can travel. Attaching a lever to the rod connected to a pneumatic cylinder run by regulated boost pressure and I think you're close. Fine tuning required of course.

In this example, the lever works a cam-plate. The silver pin in the timing piston, rides the cam-plate. This particular timing advance mechanism mounts on the engine block side of the IP. Work the lever, advance the timing. (I don't know what application it was used, nor have I measured the advance). It should work with or without our KSB.

Image


The adjustable timing shim has been done (the first image is of that developed by THD). Then there's there's the second example (toyota hilux 3l ? ).

Image

Image
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:08 pm

Cougar, we have done such that.

But regardless it is still being controlled 100% via case pressure. Unless an outside source is controlling it via whatever (like boost) that can not change.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:10 pm

BC.........that toyota adjustable timing spacer would have made things a lot easier a year ago, lol.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby oldestof11 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:49 pm

David, that 1st pic looks like what was on my old VW IDI 1.6L that had a VE. IT was a manual cold start advance. Let me tell you, if you didn't pull that sub 32*, you were going to run the battery near dead trying to start the dam thing.
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby cubedeficient64 » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:02 pm

If you get the right type of hyd relief and make the relief external, set it to base line pressure setting have a fixed orifice on the return to tank (something easy to change and tune like a holley emulsion jet) it would act exactly like the the factory relief except you could tune to compensate for bigger injectors. Take it the next step further and have a boost referenced fuel reg down stream of the orifice and you will have the ability to increase case pressure at a fixed ratio to boost rise, this would be able to effect case pressure rise through out the rev range regardless of engine speed. May need another relief as a back up while ironing the bugs out. But you get the best of both worlds. You would need atleast 2 gpm of supply lift pump flow though as a standard lift pump cant keep up with the internal vane pumpe flow.
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Re: Been doing some testing............................

Postby cubedeficient64 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:55 pm

Well ive done a bit of hunting around and have found a relief that will do the job, will handle diesel fine with the viton seal option.

Back pressure on the tank port is directly additive a 1 to 1 to the relief set pressure. Im thinking set to 40psi base relief and have your orifice in the tank port sized so at idle it has no effect on case pressure, have the return line feed into the the rising rate reg which with the higher spring set will provide 30 psi back pressure raising case pressure to around 70 psi at idle.

When rpm goes up with no load the orifice and relief valve will work the same way as the original relief, the restriction will provide the case pressure rise, so if you have larger injectors the restriction a can be adjusted to compensate with the extra fuel used.

When under any boost condition at any rpm range the referenced reg will raise back pressure in turn maintaining case pressure at higher level needed instead of dropping due to the fuel lost through the injectors, this way you are not only relying on the rpm based out put of the vane pump and orrifice. If it works the timing should advance faster under boost and when cruising it will drop back to being controlled by rpm only.

relief
http://www.hydraforce.com/Pressure/Pre- ... V08-20.htm

orrifice
http://www.summitracing.com/int/search/ ... bleed-kits

regulator
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/a ... /overview/

Not much interest in the idea :scratch: but thought I'd chuck it up anyway incase someone wants to have ago, my project is a way off yet so I wont be able to test the theory fora while.
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