Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

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Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby opiebennett » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:17 pm

So I went to tab my KDP, and noticed an empty hole where the pin should be, then noticed the cracked (and previously attempted repair of RTV / JB weld mess) timing case.

So, while I've read that the cam gear can be removed, and reinstalled with the cam in the block, I'm not confident in my ability to hold the cam from punching out the rear cam bore freeze plug, so I'm planning on pulling the cam to replace the timing housing.

So, while I have all that stuff apart... it seems that I could do one of two things:
Option 1 -
inspect all the lifters and cam surface, and throw it all back in if they are still good. Reseal everything, and have a good running 212,000 mile engine again.

Option 2 -
Since the cam is out maybe its time for a different cam and the 24 valve lifters.

Combine this with a 366 spring (3200 RPM governor) and should I be looking at valve springs too? What RPM / cam lift height / duration is the point where I sould be concerned here?
A friend with a p-pumped truck has a lot of good to say about the Colt Cams stage 2 cam (http://www.coltcams.com/html/Cummins_5_ ... /index.cfm) so that is what ive been looking at. (175/210). I'm not looking for gobs of power - maybe a little more throttle response, quicker turbo spool, and lower EGT's.


Other general questions -
Should I change the tappet/pushrod cover gasket?
When I change the timing case, does it make sense to re-seal the vacuum pump?
What do you do at the oil pan gasket interface with the timing case - is the oil pan gasket one piece, and then needs to be changed as well? or is there a trick to that?
Head bolt torquing when reinstalling the rocker arm towers - is the procedure in the Diesel supliment FSM good to go, or is there a prefered method?
Bryan 'Opie' Bennett
91.5 5.9L with 21mm H1C/A518/NP205 Reg Cab LE Pyro/Boost/Trans Temp/BD Fuel Pin/Some fuel screw/Diamond Eye 4" exhaust/B+M Deep Trans Pan/3rd Gen aluminum wheels
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby PToombs » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:30 pm

Option 1 or 2 is up to you. I know if I had the cash it would get a new cam and lifters for sure.
Absolutely change the tappet cover gasket, you'll have everything out of the way, no better time.
The vacuum pump is up to you, if it's not leaking leave it.
The pan gasket should be ok, you may have to loosen and lower the pan to make sure you have enough room to get the timing case off. I've never pulled the case except for on a teardown so I'm not 100% on that.
Thin bead of silicone at the mating surface when you install the cover back on.
I'd just torque the bolts to spec and call it good.
pete

Just enough power to break everything behind the crankshaft.
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby Kasper Cummins » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:29 pm

Only thing I have to add to that is if you want to skip a tooth for more time now would be a grate time.
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby opiebennett » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:04 pm

Kasper Cummins wrote:Only thing I have to add to that is if you want to skip a tooth for more time now would be a grate time.

I don't really know enough about timing, what factory is, what effects is has, and how much is a good idea vs how much is too much. Effect on cold starting and reliability, engine wear... I need to do some more reading about this. Thanks for bringing it up.
Bryan 'Opie' Bennett
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby opiebennett » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:40 pm

So I bought:
Colt Cams "Big Stick" stage 3 cam + the retainer (talked with Jeff the owner of Colt, and he reccomended the Stage 3 for a 12 valve over the stage 2 - even as 'stock' as mine is)
Colt Cams lifters
60lb over stock valve springs
Cummins VE pump timing case
Tappet cover gasket
both timing cover gaskets
valve cover gaskets
Dodge Diesel engine supplement FSM for a 1991 dodge truck

I'm thinking I'm going to bag my July 4 wheeling trip and spend the 3 day weekend bent over the front of my dodge.

More to follow....
Bryan 'Opie' Bennett
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby Got Smoke? » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:32 am

New cast cam or regrind?
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby opiebennett » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:54 am

Got Smoke? wrote:New cast cam or regrind?


New. According to Jeff at Colt Cams, our cams are weaker than the 2nd gen 12 valve cams, and have much smaller (front to back) lobes, so he will not grind a performance profile into them.

If you called him, and had a generator that needed a stock regrind, he would do that - but other than that case, he said the best thing to do with our cams is to throw them in the garbage. Or in my case, I plan to exchange it for beer money at the local scrap yard. :mrgreen:
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:10 pm

opiebennett wrote:
Got Smoke? wrote:New cast cam or regrind?


New. According to Jeff at Colt Cams, our cams are weaker than the 2nd gen 12 valve cams, and have much smaller (front to back) lobes, so he will not grind a performance profile into them.





Yes, this is correct.....
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby opiebennett » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:19 am

Incase anyone is following along -
Injection pump removal went fine, except one of the IP delivery valves turned when I was removing the injector line, but I dont see any cracks in the twisted line, so I'm going to use the 'reassemble and hope' method to hydro test that.

Jeff at Colt Cams said I'd probably be okay with stock springs, but said it was close to the edge. I decided it was a good time to put them in.
Valve spring swap went okay, only lost the cullets once - between the head and the firewall on the #6 exhaust. Luckily my magnet on a stick came to the resuce. Unfortunately, I droped one of the fuel line bundle bolts down a pushrod hole.
Pulled the tappet cover, recovered that bolt, new gasket and tappet cover gromets installed.

Installed the 1/2" dia wooden dowels, pulled the cam. Tried using normal thickness PCV pipe as a trough to catch the lifters, it was too thick, and they wouldnt make the corner. Dropped the #3 intake lifter into the oil pan. Took my broken timing case off, and was able to recovered that with a magnet, as it had gotten caught on the oil pickup tube, and didnt make it all the way to the sump.

Made a new trough out of permanent house vacuum PVC (really thin wall), got all the other lifters out.
Attempting to put in the new #6 exhaust lifter, dropped that into the oil pan.
Pulled all the pan bolts, was able to get it out of the sump with a magnet on a stick.

Borrowed an engine hoist, unbolted the motor mounts and trans mounts, lifted the engine up until it smashed into the firewall, then the trans up until it hit the tunnel, then the engine more, and was able to unbolt the oil pickup tube, and get the pan out (barely - stupid crossmember).
Cleaned the gasket surface, installed a new gasket (in the end this was probably better, as I had torn the front of the oil pan gasket when I removed the broken timing case), and reinstalled the oil pan and pickup tube.
Installed new timing case, little bit o RTV at the corners of the case where the gaskets come together.

About to stab the cam in tonight. I've decieded to make a tool that will bolt to the front of the cam to allow me to hold it better (the Colt Cam is tapped for a cam retainer plate) when installing it.

I'm glad I'm not a diesel mechanic - I'd be broke! I have way more time in this project than expected.
Bryan 'Opie' Bennett
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby DodgeFreak » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:50 am

man sounds like my luck with things!
92 D350 Cab and Chassis. Auto stock, wiring gremlins. 330k miles
92 W250 Ext cab rotted completely out. Auto, pump maxed, 215 ppump nozzles, Denny T2 pin.
85 D350 single wheel, converted to cummins, getrag, turned up 2 turns and afc screw flush.
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby oldestof11 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:10 pm

Good!

1 word of caution: 60lbs over, according to Zach Hamilton, do have 60lbs more SEAT pressure but when it hits a certain lift, it is just as same as the stock springs.
Jon
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby 93flatbed » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:39 pm

How much off set did you need to set the right cam timing. Or did you use an adjustable cam gear?

You certainly have better luck than I do when you drop a part....
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby opiebennett » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:03 am

93flatbed wrote:How much off set did you need to set the right cam timing. Or did you use an adjustable cam gear?

You certainly have better luck than I do when you drop a part....


When I talked with Jeff, and per his website - all his cams are installed with exact centerline.

So I just pressed the stock gear off my stock cam, removed the half moon cam key from the OEM cam, installed the key in the new cam, put Z-paste cam assembly lube on the nose, heated the gear to 310* for 45 or so minutes, then dropped the gear on. Slid on really nice about 3/4 of the way. Few quck taps with the soft face dead blow hammer seated the cam gear the rest of the way. :grin:

Did the cam gear install in my kitchen, :lol: with a piece of styrofoam on the floor to protect the floor and the bottom of the cam when hammering.
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby opiebennett » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:13 am

oldestof11 wrote:Good!

1 word of caution: 60lbs over, according to Zach Hamilton, do have 60lbs more SEAT pressure but when it hits a certain lift, it is just as same as the stock springs.


I read that thread where Zach had posted the spring pressures at seat and nose. From my (limited) understanding, this is actually an ideal situation - the added seat pressure helps keep the valves closed under boost conditions higher than the factory 14 psi but will not put additional load on the cam lobes at the nose - and should keep the cam lobes around for a while.

Talking with Jeff at Colt, (and again, I'm just a dude who has taken bolts out of engines and put them back in - certanly not an expert) he indicated that his ramp up cam profiles should be just fine with these springs - and in all likelyhood, I probably could have left well enough alone and run the stock valve springs.
I installed these more as an insurance and to make me cringe a little less when I'm pulling my jeep and trailer over Chinook Pass on 410 holding wide open, max boost, max load for 10 minutes on end.

It should also allow me to have less concern when running higher boost, if later I decide thats a good idea :shock:, but I'll need to look into some head studs and a head gasket at that time.

There was discussion on the 60# springs at the end of Dave's (BC847) thread here:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/ ... hlight=cam

How does that Johnny Cash song go? One piece at a time... :oops:
Bryan 'Opie' Bennett
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Re: Cracked timing case, What to do while I have it apart

Postby offroad cowboy » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:23 am

Let me know how the cam worked out, was thinking of doing this to mine to as the cover is leaking and check the KDP.
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