Just a little more . . . . .

How to make it go fast

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Just a little more . . . . .

Postby BC847 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:17 pm

Well, I can't remember who made the reference first, but, repeating it: . . . . . I figure it won't be long that if I post something about my 12.67 run back in '11 . . . . one more time, . . . . . I will have reached "Hogue Status". :lol:



I've got some stupid-big injectors and need more air. Specifically way-down low in the engine RPM. The heap is currently NOT driver friendly when it comes to controlling no to low boost smoke (this is NOT an AFC thing ;) ).

Currently, the heap's Charge-Air circuit amounts to:
- Custom oiled-gause air filter in a 100% true cold air intake.
- 4" tube from the filter to the primary turbo.
- PDR HT3B primary with the 23" exhaust housing (I think it's 23).
- 3" tube from primary turbo to secondary turbo.
- PDR custom S362 secondary with a 14" exhaust housing with the dual puck internal WG.
- 3" tubing from secondary turbo to IC.
- Custom Hellman after-cooler (no more than 3psig pressure drop from secondary to head, at full song).
- 3" tubing from IC to Twin-Ram type intake feedhorn.
- PDR ported head (195cfm IN / 220 EX)
- Hamilton 188/220 cam, etc . .
- Early ATP 3-piece exhaust manifold.
- "Cobra-Head" hot-pipe.
- 4" down-pipe to just past the transfer-case and 5" on back.

Looking for suggestions as to how to make it spool MUCH quicker off idle. Different secondary such as a ball-bearing unit? Small(er) exhaust housing with an external WG on the manifold? Ball-bearing primary? All three?

A little more air on the top-end would help keeping the EGTs down as well. ;)

Basic low-buck options all the way up to Drool caliber . . . .. what would you suggest? :?:

BTW: Honestly, I know squat about the A/Rs and all the different compressor/turbine wheel sizes. I read many of the threads here and there. Most are suited to the higher RPM fueled engines, not VE stuff. I do understand how the mess works, but when it comes to, by design, dialing-in the right component selection, I'm lost at this point. I'd rather spend the money once (again :roll: ).
David

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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:44 pm

Do you know what turbine wheel is on that 62? 65 or 68?
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby oldestof11 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:54 pm

Junker Drag truck ran a 10 flat with an HE351 and a HT60...

Smaller secondary and a more modern primary is what I would do. I would see about a Garrett ball bearing primary.

If you want some good reading, look up my discussion on CompD in the turbo section. The "Turbo, Deeper Discussion" or whatever I called it.

In there is a nugget of truth that, at least myself, with sizing the big brother diesel engines, the compressor and exducer need to be closer matched to each other in size than our engines due to RPM. Since we have effectively made our engine "bigger" with compound turbos, that is why the box stock big primaries do better.

Another thing to look into: an external wastegate dumping into the primary exhaust stream. Finer tuning and more exhaust can pass through an external over a traditional wastegated housing.

Unrelated but maybe we can apply it to AFC tuning.

John Robinson's diesel altered rail has an interesting setup to control power. There is a BOV in the interstage piping. The secondary when he is spooling at the line "only" sees 20psi from the primary. When he launches it, it trips the BOV so now the secondary sees 40psi. When he pushes the button for 2nd gear (air shifted liberty), it then ramps up to 60psi. Maybe we can find a system that doesn't move the AFC cone until the primary hits a certain psi.
Jon
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby BC847 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:03 pm

RCCUMMINS89 wrote:Do you know what turbine wheel is on that 62? 65 or 68?

No, I do not. I've been trying to get in touch with folks at PDR to see if they could tell me. Haven't taken things apart to measure.
oldestof11 wrote:If you want some good reading, look up my discussion on CompD in the turbo section. The "Turbo, Deeper Discussion" or whatever I called it.

Yup, good reading.
David

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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby DMan1198 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:11 pm

If you wanted to go nuts you could do a gtx3582r secondary with .63 a/r turbine housing. This will require an external gate. Then use a gtx4294r for the primary. The 3582r is good for 76lbs/min I believe, and with the small housing, and dbb cartridge spool up should be incredible while the e-gate means it doesn't become a big restriction right away. Then the 4294r is good for 98ish lbs/min and it's dbb cartridge should get it to light a fair bit quicker than the ht3b. Then step up to a 5 or 6" intake if possible to remove any potential inlet limits
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby PToombs » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:46 pm

I had the 62/71-14 on mine with the S472 primary. It was a smokey pig down low and didn't light until it was up to about 2k rpms. Dry type cone filter on the primary inlet, ATS 3 piece manifold, 3" 90* Ell from the secondary to the primary, 3 inch exhaust pipe for air from primary to secondary, stock size 2.5 inch tubes to the PDR IC (stock inlet and outlet with larger cross tubes) and from there to a 3" 90* Tims tube on the intake. Stock head, stock cam.
I pulled the S362 and put my hybrid H1C with a HTT Stage 4 60mm wheel back on with a new 12cm housing and drilled the divider to 'gate both sides. It lights at about 1700rpms or so and spools way faster than before. It still smokes, but it's better down low, I can step on it like I did and get less smoke than before. I can still make it smoke bad, but it's a lot better. Plus when I go around a corner in 3rd at 30 mph and poke it, instead of it smoking and blacking out 3 lanes, now it blacks out 2 and goes sideways across 2 lanes. It's a lot more fun. :mrgreen:

I didn't want to go buying turbos to figure it out and got lucky just buying a housing and putting the old turbo back on to make mine better.

Hope this helps you some BC.
pete

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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:57 pm

Tighter secondary with a more modern primary is also what I would recommend.

351 over a 472 with the 87 turbine wheel (have to be built) is most likely what the RC will get eventually.


Or.... rebuild the engine, and RAISE the compression considerably.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby Tacoclaw » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:49 am

Check for boost leaks. :finger:




See if Hiney will let you borrow his S300g, it oughta bolt right in and we all know he's not using it. :lol:


Any thoughts to dual-feeding? High EGT's with that much stuff kinda screams retarded timing up top. You have any case-pressure readings from a run to make sure that isn't what's happening?
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby oldestof11 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:04 am

Gotta remember here, the secondary is going to take longer to light if you have another turbo for the exhaust to pass through.
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby Remps » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:50 am

Gtx3576r x3. .82ar on the high pressure, .63ar on the low pressure turbos. The ultimate ve will start spooling by 13-1400 rpm, with the low pressure side spooling by 16-1700 rpm. Complex and expensive and would probably require a waste gate or two. Two 3576's would push 120 lbs/min.
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby BC847 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:50 pm

Thanks for the responses folks. 8) It's a lot to digest.

"High EGT's with that much stuff kinda screams retarded timing up top. You have any case-pressure readings from a run to make sure that isn't what's happening?"

Oh yes. I've eliminated the KSB circuit entirely and am treating the dynamic timing hardware as though it were a mechanical advance on a typical gasser's ignition distributor . . . . just driven by case-pressure. I can't remember the current case-pressure setting other than it's around 200psig wound up . . . . in a less than WOT, wound-up situation.

That being said, I'm still stuck at the point that high engine RPM, H/R fuel demand, is outrunning the vane-pump's capacity resulting in the high RPM / WOT case-pressure sagging. In that shade of light, setting the static timing to compensate is a successful Band-Aid, but you gotta live with over advance timing at lower RPM till you can work that out with timing piston springs. With the given H/R demand, I'm gonna have to deal with the vane-pump to fix it, or back off on the WOT/high RPM fuel. :?


Otherwise, I've got plenty of fuel down low. I just need to actually burn it.

Too be sure that taking advantage of newer technology, this thing can have MUCH better throttle response with much less smoke leaving a stop light.


Frankly, I am leaning toward an externally gated ball-bearing something . . . . . chit's expensive. I figure I can sell my current setup and offset the cost of newer mess.




Speaking of deep thoughts on that other forum . . . . Has anybody given any thought as to exhaust manifold internal volumes, and how they effect maintaining velocity vs impacting high RPM flow (choke point)? I don't know that a super-big flowing manifold would be of benefit to our lower RPM fueled engines. (Think real-world mostly part-throttle as opposed to flat-out WOT performance).


Keep the thoughts coming. As long as the Wife is giving a green light, I need to make sure my ass is WAY down the road before she looks up . .. :lol:
David

1993 12mm VE Fueled W250 CC, Green
12.67 @ 103.35
Your basic farm truck ;)
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:57 pm

BC........when activating the ksb (if you still could) would result in an immediate jump in case pressure, regardless of injector size.

This leads me to believe that it is not the vane pump having difficulty keeping up, it is the things around it that control it.



This still ALWAYS brings me back to a boost (not direct throttle, as things can spool quicker with the immediate drop in case pressure/timing) referenced controlled ksb.

Now, when one slows down/completely stops the fuel flow through the ksb tube... it drastically increases case pressure.




In short....control the flow through the ksb tube via a boost referenced needle valve and one will not have any case pressure drop at wot.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby bgilbert » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:03 pm

You might ask PDR for a 12cm (.70AR) turbine housing. My spool up improved when switching from the 14 to the 12.. to the tune of ~35rwhp.
Bill Gilbert
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby BC847 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:14 pm

RCCUMMINS89 wrote:BC........when activating the ksb (if you still could) would result in an immediate jump in case pressure, regardless of injector size.


That is correct, assuming you don't have injectors that are big enough to outrun the vane-pump, with the H/R spill-port covered, at high engine RPM. I wouldn't be surprised that cavitation and such flow issues become more pronounced in the IP when wound up at WOT.


It's my understanding that, generally speaking, activating the KSB simply causes the case pressure regulator to go to full pressure, thus fully advancing the injection event timing . . . .. provided the vane-pump can maintain the given case pressure.
David

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12.67 @ 103.35
Your basic farm truck ;)
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Re: Just a little more . . . . .

Postby BC847 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:17 pm

bgilbert wrote:You might ask PDR for a 12cm (.70AR) turbine housing. My spool up improved when switching from the 14 to the 12.. to the tune of ~35rwhp.

Bill, you echo what others suggest (smaller secondary housing resulting in quicker spool) . . . . . but doesn't that contribute toward potential surging?
David

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