IP observations...

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IP observations...

Postby CumminsPower59 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:13 am

Took apart two core pumps, just to see what the main differences between a 114 code NON-IC pump, and a 205 code IC pump. Took some pictures of the rotor, as that's about as far as I got last night.

114 left, 205 right.

Image


114 left, 205 right.

Image

Just trying to put two and two together as to why NON-IC pumps "seem" to move a little more fuel than the later, IC pumps...

Thoughts?
Ike

91 W350 SRW, 3.07's, NV4500, 370's, THD LPPP, Super HX40, 2nd gen IC swap, BHAF, Isspro's, 2" lift, 285's on 3rd gen 17"'s.
04 VW Jetta Wagon TDI 5speed
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Re: IP observations...

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:42 am

Very few have shared info with me on these pumps Ike. Both of the pump shops I deal with are very guarded,probably don't have a clue anyhow,of the inter workings.
Like yesterday I got the toe swivel in the sand asking about rebuilding my pump with new parts (H&R). I got "oh,normally that not necessary....typically",I ain't typical,normal, or usual. Neither is anything that belongs to me.

I'll be disassembling two pumps myself,starting with making the sockets I need this morning. The one from my truck and a non intercooled I bought a year ago to do a 24v engine with.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: IP observations...

Postby CumminsPower59 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:18 am

I was once told that the IC delivery valves installed in a NON-IC pump will move a bit of fuel, I'm gonna get some pics soon, as I have seen slight differences between several sets of delivery valves. Some individuals will say they are all alike, but there are small differences.

I wish I could afford a test unit so I could really mess around with these pumps.
Ike

91 W350 SRW, 3.07's, NV4500, 370's, THD LPPP, Super HX40, 2nd gen IC swap, BHAF, Isspro's, 2" lift, 285's on 3rd gen 17"'s.
04 VW Jetta Wagon TDI 5speed
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Re: IP observations...

Postby ellis93 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:33 am

Ike I'm not gonna bomb your post with a bunch of bs on what I'm finding with my junk. I'm just gonna say that there has to be a difference somewhere. The non intercooled truck people have just seem to respond better.....in my reading. Unless they are all full of schit.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: IP observations...

Postby CumminsPower59 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:50 am

I agree with you 100% that there is a difference somewhere in these pumps. Just the rotor alone looks like it has the capacity to move more fuel, the slots in the end of the rotor are twice as deep in the NON-IC vs. the IC...that has to amount to someting :?:
Ike

91 W350 SRW, 3.07's, NV4500, 370's, THD LPPP, Super HX40, 2nd gen IC swap, BHAF, Isspro's, 2" lift, 285's on 3rd gen 17"'s.
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Re: IP observations...

Postby bgilbert » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:24 pm

FWIW, I never dynoed it, but I had a 12mm 205 pump that seemed to run just as good as my nonIC 103 turned 14mm pump. The same 14mm pump that did 500+hp. I'm interested in hearing more on this subject. I just hope the thread doesn't turn into another BS/Chat/build thread...
Bill Gilbert
85 D350 crew with 90 6BT intercooled Getrag 3.07's
93 D350 single cab Getrag 3.54's.
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Re: IP observations...

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:13 pm

I would like someone to actually have test bench results vs the two... I haven't benched all that many pumps (I've done maybe 10).

I haven't seen one lick of difference in fuel output between the non i/c vs i/c. It more varies from pump to pump. 265 to 285cc is about normal with the p pump output doo hickies on the test bench.


Why did Bosch change the things they did? Who knows.... because to my non trained Bosch engineered butt.... it doesn't change fuel out put. Timing curve, afc jargon... oh yea.. alot
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: IP observations...

Postby oldestof11 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:14 pm

CumminsPower59 wrote:Image


This right here is why it SEEMS like Non-IC people hit runaway. Look at the shape of the relief hole in the rotors. The IC defuels quicker and sooner. Once it uncovers 50% of the hole, the cut and shape suggest a quicker release of the fuel. Where as you need more return stroke of the Non-IC to net the same results.

Bill, you are not the first to feel that. 92SmokingBlacky on DTR, Austin Elsmore, finally broke his 14mm after 3-4 years of sled pulling and racing. He replaced it with an IC 12mm and says it comes up on the charger quicker but his 1/4 mile times suggest less power.

Which just reinforces the fact that the 14mm fuels really hard down low, which hurts spool.

And I am going to play with my pump on my truck some more. I need a good core to massage too. 4 things stand out: Fuel inlet size, inlet to the rotor, fuel return, and AFC adjustment.

Guy on CompD put a VE on a 6.7L. Loves it and is claiming 23mpg. Said it is much more torque than the 5.9L. Loves it so much he is doing a build thread on a 2nd VE'd 6.7L engine.
Jon
93 D250~ Mismatch of cheap parts, trying to look fast going slow
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Re: IP observations...

Postby Remps » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:15 am

I had a look at that 6.7 last night. It's just.....sexy. I want a newer truck now. :lol:
'90 D250 R/C,727,IC,6x.009's,1/8" bump,fuel psi,straight pipe w/5" stack.
'90 W250 R/C,47rh,K@N,HX35,1/8" bump,2nd gen IC,boost,egt,trans temp.3.07's.
'96 2500 S/C L/B,2wd,NV5600,3.54 L/S,cai,egt,pacbrake,mbrp exhaust,10 plate.
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Re: IP observations...

Postby ellis93 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:57 pm

I'm having to cobble two pump into one good now. I'm half way done and found 1 difference the vain pump paddles are different between the two pumps. The non I/c pump is bigger measuring in at 0.393 and the other measures 0.0376. I only found this after trying to use different paddles with another pump rotor. I had two non I/c with two i/c'ed,the pump shaft locked up.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: IP observations...

Postby DodgeFreak » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:37 am

CumminsPower59 wrote:Took apart two core pumps, just to see what the main differences between a 114 code NON-IC pump, and a 205 code IC pump. Took some pictures of the rotor, as that's about as far as I got last night.

114 left, 205 right.

Image


114 left, 205 right.

Image

Just trying to put two and two together as to why NON-IC pumps "seem" to move a little more fuel than the later, IC pumps...

Thoughts?

Is the I\C shorter than the non I\C?? The 2nd picture it looks shorter but I can't tell if it's even on the other end. 2nd thing is. The hole in the end is are they the same size or is the non IC a hair larger. Also what is the grove behind the fill ports for?

what do you think about,drilling the fill port on the head and the the fill ports on the rotor out, and maybe notching the slots by the holes slightly to allow for alittle longer fill time and then drill the end hole and delivery hole slightly larger to move a slightly larger volume of fuel. Also if you was to mill the end of the rotor and then add a larger cam plate to get the same stroke you would have more fuel. Also like Jon mentioned I would use the non I\C pump since the cutoff bore would be uncovered later. Also I'm not sure what that would do with timing. It might throw it all out of whack, especially if you only drilled the center to the outlet port and not to the cutoff bore.... More I write down the more I don't think that would work......if I had a spare pump I'd do it just to see what happened lol.

this is coming from a guy that has virtually no experience or expertise on the ve pump. Does anyone know what the stock camplate lift is?? 3 mm or 2.8?
92 D350 Cab and Chassis. Auto stock, wiring gremlins. 330k miles
92 W250 Ext cab rotted completely out. Auto, pump maxed, 215 ppump nozzles, Denny T2 pin.
85 D350 single wheel, converted to cummins, getrag, turned up 2 turns and afc screw flush.
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