Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

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Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby spencerdiesel » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:24 pm

Read some old (peak VE battling era) threads about turbine housing restriction effect on high HP engines. By no means am I trying to sound snarky (as my knowledge is nil compared to most here), but I am curious if a 12cm secondary and 18 cm primary would be "restrictive" enough to hold a couple ponies back? Only when one is pushing over 450 horse is what I'm getting at.

I realize the WG will help keep restriction to a minimum. If one cared for nothing except a big dyno number, not to mention a power band from 3,000 to 3,002 rpm, would a big single with a big hot side support/free up more power than a "tight" twin setup?

Probably never light without happy gas....
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

Fuel: THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw bottomed @ 3 turns, timing bumped 3/16"
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby DMan1198 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:43 pm

It isn't just the housing that determines choke point on the turbine side. The turbine wheel plays a big role in that as well. As an example on an s400 the 83/.9 turbine side is capable of supporting 900whp while the 87/.9 turbine side is capable of 1150+whp, and the turbine housing is literally the same size.

if you consider where turbo technology is at this point making bigger power with a big single is easier than ever. There's the new s369sx-e that flows 98lb/min of air on the compressor side while its redesigned 80/74 turbine wheel responds better than its predecessor (I ran a charger with the old wheel, and it really is lazy) of course the math puts that 98lb/min compressor at supporting 900whp which is a little overkill for our ve's, but there's also a 364sx-e and a 366sx-e which still flow a lot for their size, and the material the wheels are made of is tough. They'll handle o-rings with only slight nicks. I haven't done any research on the internal gates in a very long time, and I run my 6.7 non gated, so I can't really comment on the whole internal gate restriction thing
Ducati- professional nap taker, and thread derailer extraordinaire
Brownie: 80 dodge heavy half. Ghost cummins under the hood, and some sinister plans
The Roo Hunter: 93 w250, lifted, 2 whistle machines, and a bunch of other go fast goodies, uhh..... not there yet
Jaeger: 12 ram 3500. Lifted, exhausted, and fed an excessive quantity of air
The Huntress: 02 Jetta TDI. No muffler, egr, horsepower
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby spencerdiesel » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:33 am

Knowledge is good. I just got fed lots of it :lol:
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

Fuel: THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw bottomed @ 3 turns, timing bumped 3/16"
Muffler delete
spencerdiesel
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:35 pm

Just an fyi.......a 58mm turbine wheel and a 9cm housing (HE351CW) can support 500hp all day long on a CR.

It can't on a ve, but what my point is......... being restrictive is a lot smaller on a ve than some will admit to.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby spencerdiesel » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:37 pm

Restriction on the hot side is not as great a concern on a VE in other words?
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

Fuel: THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw bottomed @ 3 turns, timing bumped 3/16"
Muffler delete
spencerdiesel
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 1022
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby DMan1198 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:36 pm

I think it's a little more like with limited fuelling the choke point will be noticed sooner. as in when the choke point begins to appear the lack of fuel output on a ve can't push through the restriction to make the power that a cr can make with its greater capabilities
Ducati- professional nap taker, and thread derailer extraordinaire
Brownie: 80 dodge heavy half. Ghost cummins under the hood, and some sinister plans
The Roo Hunter: 93 w250, lifted, 2 whistle machines, and a bunch of other go fast goodies, uhh..... not there yet
Jaeger: 12 ram 3500. Lifted, exhausted, and fed an excessive quantity of air
The Huntress: 02 Jetta TDI. No muffler, egr, horsepower
DMan1198
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 2176
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby spencerdiesel » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:20 pm

Oh VE's can't tell the turbo to suck it and keep pushin' :)
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

Fuel: THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw bottomed @ 3 turns, timing bumped 3/16"
Muffler delete
spencerdiesel
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:02 pm
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby spencerdiesel » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:21 pm

So then one may see a benefit to a looser housing in high hp and high R's?
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

Fuel: THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw bottomed @ 3 turns, timing bumped 3/16"
Muffler delete
spencerdiesel
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:02 pm
Location: Brevard, NC
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby DMan1198 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:02 pm

That's pretty much exactly it. Where guys are spinning big rpms (like p pump trucks, and crs of the right year) the housings that some are running are quite loose (I know of one person running an s480/87/1.25 secondary with a gtx5533r primary (I suspect non gated)) the setup I plan on going with on my 6.7 is a 78/106 compound setup, and I might end up building 2 versions. One with 2 gates on the manifold, and an 83/.9 turbine side secondary, and one with a 87/1.25 or 92/1.1 turbine side secondary with no gate (1400+whp goal)
Ducati- professional nap taker, and thread derailer extraordinaire
Brownie: 80 dodge heavy half. Ghost cummins under the hood, and some sinister plans
The Roo Hunter: 93 w250, lifted, 2 whistle machines, and a bunch of other go fast goodies, uhh..... not there yet
Jaeger: 12 ram 3500. Lifted, exhausted, and fed an excessive quantity of air
The Huntress: 02 Jetta TDI. No muffler, egr, horsepower
DMan1198
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:26 am
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby spencerdiesel » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:41 pm

GTR eating goals you have 8) 2 CP3's? How much power can you make with the stock CP3?
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

Fuel: THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw bottomed @ 3 turns, timing bumped 3/16"
Muffler delete
spencerdiesel
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:02 pm
Location: Brevard, NC
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby DMan1198 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:57 pm

If it's healthy, close to 600. With bigger injectors 650whp is possible. The plan at that point is a pair of 12mm stroker pumps, and 400% over injectors
Ducati- professional nap taker, and thread derailer extraordinaire
Brownie: 80 dodge heavy half. Ghost cummins under the hood, and some sinister plans
The Roo Hunter: 93 w250, lifted, 2 whistle machines, and a bunch of other go fast goodies, uhh..... not there yet
Jaeger: 12 ram 3500. Lifted, exhausted, and fed an excessive quantity of air
The Huntress: 02 Jetta TDI. No muffler, egr, horsepower
DMan1198
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:26 am
Location: Slave Lake, Alberta
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby spencerdiesel » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:48 pm

How streetable will that setup be? Just shy of DD?
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

Fuel: THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw bottomed @ 3 turns, timing bumped 3/16"
Muffler delete
spencerdiesel
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:02 pm
Location: Brevard, NC
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby DMan1198 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:45 am

It depends on your definition of streetable. General rule of thumb is over 650whp these trucks are essentially useless in 2wd. They'll smoke the tires like nothing, but that doesn't mean you can't drive a 1000+whp truck on the street. By the time I have the money to turn it into such a monster I'll have other things to drive if I need to
Ducati- professional nap taker, and thread derailer extraordinaire
Brownie: 80 dodge heavy half. Ghost cummins under the hood, and some sinister plans
The Roo Hunter: 93 w250, lifted, 2 whistle machines, and a bunch of other go fast goodies, uhh..... not there yet
Jaeger: 12 ram 3500. Lifted, exhausted, and fed an excessive quantity of air
The Huntress: 02 Jetta TDI. No muffler, egr, horsepower
DMan1198
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:26 am
Location: Slave Lake, Alberta
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby spencerdiesel » Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:49 pm

I like that ideaology 8) Got any videos of it?
1992 W250, 5 speed, 4.10, Ext. cab Ext. bed, 12.5k winch, 75 gal. fuel tank

Fuel: THD 12 psi piston pump, THD fuel pin, 366 spring, fuel screw bottomed @ 3 turns, timing bumped 3/16"
Muffler delete
spencerdiesel
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:02 pm
Location: Brevard, NC
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Re: Hot side restriction in higher HP numbers

Postby DMan1198 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:08 pm

Not many good ones. It's not the easiest to hold a camera while driving, and nobody will hold a camera for me to do outside stuff
Ducati- professional nap taker, and thread derailer extraordinaire
Brownie: 80 dodge heavy half. Ghost cummins under the hood, and some sinister plans
The Roo Hunter: 93 w250, lifted, 2 whistle machines, and a bunch of other go fast goodies, uhh..... not there yet
Jaeger: 12 ram 3500. Lifted, exhausted, and fed an excessive quantity of air
The Huntress: 02 Jetta TDI. No muffler, egr, horsepower
DMan1198
14mm rotor
 
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:26 am
Location: Slave Lake, Alberta
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