water meth placement

[1991cummins]

ok, i am soon going to move my water/meth injectors right up next to the grid heater, because i have heard its the only way for it to cool well... but that brings the question to mind "will water meth cool if i still have a grid heater?"

i am not sure i understand where the cooled egt's come from, is it from cooler boost inlet temperature into the cylinders, or the presence of water itself in the combustion process?

thanks guys, i appreciate the help,
Derek

[gear jammer 91"]

My water injection nozzels are right in the same place you are talking about and they work good. The water has a duel cooling affect, first by cooling the air in the intake manifold before it enter the combustion chamber, second by the water molecules absorbing some of the heat from combustion, I think .

[1991cummins]

hmmm... yah, what about the grid heater? will it need to be removed to see sufficient cooling? or will it be fine still there do you think?

[Begle1]

I see 200-300 degrees of cooling, and I still have the grid heaters. I'm spraying in the part where the stock intake point's up.





I've never heard a conclusive, satisfactory explanation of how it works. According to intake temperature readings, we know that water drops intake temperatures below water's boiling point, so that implies that at least a large part of water's cooling comes from convection- direct heat exchange between the surface of the water and the air vapor.

Obviously that would mean that we want as fine atomization as possible; to increase surface area.

I would naturally think that would also mean that we want to give the water as much time as possible to absorb heat; that would mean to mount it as close to the turbo as possible. BUT, it seems that nobody does that...

When a finny intercooler is added to the equation, I would believe that you would want to spray after the intercooler, because that funny restriction would cause the water to drop out. (That could be confirmed and further tested with a ballcock tapped into the bottom of somebody's intake piping...) But, even the non-intercooled guys like to spray right into the head. Is that only done for the sake of tuning flow rate for each cylinder? Possible. I have seen set-ups spray into the head and the cross over. (I wasn't aware that anybody had nozzles of precise enough diameters to tune flow-rate per cylinder...)

Why would we want to spray water directly into the cylinders, and not give it as much time as possible for heat absorption? I don't know. Either to tune for each cylinder individually or to keep it from dropping out are the only things I can think of.

Which leads me to the second thought; why not force it to drop out somehow? Put one of those automatic water draining ball cocks that big rigs have in their air tanks on the bottom of some kind of centrifuge arrestor piping? Hmmm... If we dropped most of the water out of the charge before it entered the combustion chamber, we would never have to worry about hydrolocking (and could recycle the water). Not to mention we could isolate the results of the water's convection, from whatever results from having the water present in the combustion process.

[TWorline]

Your grid heaters will not affect the cooling capacity of your water/meth system, they only come on when the engine is cold, they do not come on once the truck is warmed up. Our engines do not require them to run unlike engines that use glow plugs. I have my 2 injectors mounted right after the IC so it has a little more time to mix completely with the incoming air.

[1991cummins]

god, see, i have mine mounted right after the intercooler, one at about 2" after and the other about 8"... i see no noticable cooling... i have verified that the boost switch works (Well did work a while ago, now its broken) i have verified that the pump works, ad that the injectors are misting well... i dont know that its injecting while driving 100%... but i see no reason why it wouldnt be, this is just frustrating, i need to put a little LED on it...

[1991cummins]

and begle, i am very interested in how the physical dynamics of this work... but, like you, cannot get a definitive explanation... i was told once that the "big dogs" inject them directly into the head allowing for perfect amount of flow to each, that leads me to think that there must be something going on in the cumbustion process...

though, that may be just to assure the alcohol makes its way into the cylinder... im not sure, obviously...

i have mainly run 100% water, and see no results at all... so idk what exactly to think, and i know water is being moved because my tank will empty, and i have no leaks that i know of, so i must be injecting...

are yall all running coolingmist's 150psi pump?

[cummins king]

Hey Begle i see your running 3 or 4 sprayers, what size are they?

[TWorline]

If you are using straight water theoretically this will provide the most reduction in EGT as methanol adds fuel to the fire. The increase in Hp comes from the direct result of water exploding into steam thus absorbing the heat energy that would normally exit the exhaust system. When I say explode that is exactly what happens as the water, even though it is a fine mist, is turned into steam at the rate of 1:1600. I used to work with molten iron and the first thing you learned was you can put all the water you want on top of iron but you cannot put any water underneath it as it will explode.

[Begle1]

All three together flowtest at .5 gallons per minute. I'm pretty confident that against pressure the little 150 PSI Shurflo is dropping flow down to less than that though.

[Oddfire]

All three together flowtest at .5 gallons per minute. I'm pretty confident that against pressure the little 150 PSI Shurflo is dropping flow down to less than that though.

Nice stool!

[U.S MMA]

My nozzle is at the back of the intake horn, about, maybe 8 inches from the intake grids. I had no idea of about placement when i installed it. I see about 200-300 drop with either water or 50/50 meth. I notice that I still have to adhere to good egt reducing driving methods or I will still peg the pyro. Not so much now since I backed off the screw a turn, but Im still in the testing stages. begle, thats a lot of water. A couple weeks ago i was towing, grossed about 18-19k, and with my single 625 nozzle I was getting a bad knock sound. then my headgasket got a little leaky. only about 17-21 psi of boost. I think a load on the engine changes things. now i have a single 325, same egt reduction empty, no towing yet.

[Ace]

Mine seems to work pretty good with no grid heaters at all.

http://stuff.is-a-geek.net/PhotoAlbum/C ... TD_179.jpg

Begle, I think you need more pump for all those nozzles. You should install a gauge after the pump and see what the actual running pressure is when you have more than one or two nozzles activated. I'll bet it's not enough for good atomization.

[Begle1]

Begle, I think you need more pump for all those nozzles. You should install a gauge after the pump and see what the actual running pressure is when you have more than one or two nozzles activated. I'll bet it's not enough for good atomization.

My new set-up totally doesn't have pressure drop problems.



I could try it out if I could figure out how to make my alternator charge...

[TWorline]

Begle: All I can say is WOW!!!