Injection pump testing

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Injection pump testing

Postby KTA » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:53 pm

Well I finaly got my pump stand going and ran some pumps with my 6x.018" injectors. Thanks to multiple modifications I made I now have the ability to flow a pump with the Injectors it will be run with. I started with a pump I had off a burned up engine I parted out to see if the pump was any good, to get some base line numbers, and so if something went wrong I didn't wreck a customers pump.

The pump tested was a non intercooled pump and it still had the collar on the fuel screw but it was turned all the way in I also rotated the fuel cone and ran it with it at its deepest point only. I am certain these big flow numbers are the reason why big injectors are the key to power with the VE Regardess here are the results all at 1000stk and 12psi fuel pressure. I ran 30psi also but the results were the same. As a side note I accidently cranked it to 50 once and it didn't blow the seal out.

800rpm/idle 7cc
1000rpm wot 170cc
1500rpm wot 185cc
2000rpm wot 185cc
2200rpm wot 186cc
2400rpm wot 190cc
2500rpm wot 180cc
2600rpm wot 132cc
3000rpm wot 26cc

So with these settings it looks like if you burned all the fuel at 190ccX2 = 380 engine hp then X by 80% for drivetrain losses and you have a nice 304rwhp. Well it probably wouldn't actualy be to nice as these injectors would be awefuly doggy and smokey for only 300rwhp, but that isn't the point of this post.

Here are the results of a customer and member heres pump after doing the usual tweaks. It is a intercooled pump with the fuel screw maxed where I could just get the idle set right, cone turned and run at shallowest point.
800rpm/idle 7cc
1500rpm wot 180cc
2000rpm wot 200cc
2200rpm wot 200cc
2500rpm wot 190cc
2600rpm wot 180cc
3000rpm wot 45cc
with the cone at its deepest the peak fuel delivery at 2200rpm was 300cc!! I guess that is about right 300cc X2= 600engine hp
Then take 600engine hp * 80% to account for drivetrain losses in a manual and you have 480rwhp. And since that has been done before with these very injectors I am going to say this all seems pretty reasonable. 8)
When I get some more tools, fittings and adapters made I will be finding out a lot more about the actual operation of the VE and as I do I will share what I find. One thing of note if you forget to turn on the fuel supply pump and you make the VE suck it it only delivers about half the fuel so for best performance you need a steady supply of at least 8psi fuel!
Fleet of Junk: 1989 D350 627rwhp 1300 tq B-1/Hx60 twins, KTA pump/injectors, ported head, BIG fuel supply. 13.75@ 109.5mph 1/4: 1992 W350 Cab-chasis, 1993 W350 ext cab cust.370 inj Hx40/16cm 290rwhp hydroboost brakes,1984 D350 crew-cab another project.
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby burnt_servo » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:02 pm

very interesting ...... thank you for you for posting this .

so just to be clear , these are for all intents and purposes stock pumps , with stock fuel cones and no internal mods at all ?

any idea what the numbers might look like with a stiffer govenor spring , lets say 4500 rpm before it starts to defuel .
'93 w250 .... stock ...
curently removing the dead moose parts ....
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby ellis93 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:03 pm

Are you limiting this to just VE pumps or are you to include various pumps.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby KTA » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:12 pm

ellis93 wrote:Are you limiting this to just VE pumps or are you to include various pumps.

I am not sure what you are asking? I only ran VE pumps. And yes besides the usual hand grinder attacking the fuel cone so that it can reach max fuel just like any performance pin these were both stock 12mm pumps. The stock governor springs and settings are obvious from the defueling starting at 2400rpm. I will probably end up putting a 3200rpm spring in the customers pump if that is what he wants. I don't posess any other springs to try, but if somebody wants to send me something to try and then post the results I will.
Fleet of Junk: 1989 D350 627rwhp 1300 tq B-1/Hx60 twins, KTA pump/injectors, ported head, BIG fuel supply. 13.75@ 109.5mph 1/4: 1992 W350 Cab-chasis, 1993 W350 ext cab cust.370 inj Hx40/16cm 290rwhp hydroboost brakes,1984 D350 crew-cab another project.
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby ellis93 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Well what I was asking if there was any chance of you working with any other injector pumps like off of a john deere. It just crossed my mind.

The information that you have posted is very good and I aim to follow it.
Do you build pumps for certain people or whoever.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby KTA » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:25 pm

I have the fixtures and lines to run A-pumps as well, but only with the normal test injectors. I haven't built any holders for KDEL or KDL nozzles yet. I don't have any of the lines or fixtures to run Roosa master DM, DB or Lucas pumps. I mainly just do tractor pull/ competition stuff, but can do some of whatever. I can also run a big P-pump but only to balance it I can't flow it. Those things take more power than the 10hp motor on my stand can supply. :twisted:
Fleet of Junk: 1989 D350 627rwhp 1300 tq B-1/Hx60 twins, KTA pump/injectors, ported head, BIG fuel supply. 13.75@ 109.5mph 1/4: 1992 W350 Cab-chasis, 1993 W350 ext cab cust.370 inj Hx40/16cm 290rwhp hydroboost brakes,1984 D350 crew-cab another project.
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby GLHS » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:38 pm

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!

Are you going to try to monitor case pressure too when your done with the fittings?
92 W250 ext cab, 5spd, SPS 62/71/14, ATS 3 piece, Banks 3G intake, Icebox CAI, DDP #4+, timing 1.95 mm, SB 4 puck FE, PDR fuel pin, Hellmann intercooler, Snow water/meth, 60# springs, stock long block, D80 3.54 w/disks, 455+/1005 uncorrected, 13.34@102 7-06; 472 fuel/520 water/meth uncorrected 5-08
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby KTA » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:46 pm

Yes I plan to make a special Tee banjo fitting so that I can monitor case pressure before the orificed return banjo. My other option is to make a fitting to get the pressure out of the fuel shut off solenoid port since I gut them to run anyway so I don't need a 12V power supply. I am conceraned that if I put it there though I will get a lot of pressure fluctuation form the plunger. decisions, decisions.......... Tractor pulling next weekend at Gordyville so that will probably put any more testing off for a couple of weeks as other stuff has now come up to do.
Fleet of Junk: 1989 D350 627rwhp 1300 tq B-1/Hx60 twins, KTA pump/injectors, ported head, BIG fuel supply. 13.75@ 109.5mph 1/4: 1992 W350 Cab-chasis, 1993 W350 ext cab cust.370 inj Hx40/16cm 290rwhp hydroboost brakes,1984 D350 crew-cab another project.
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby dazedandconfused » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:31 am

Very cool. Have you done any testing with a 14mm head yet?
1983 Dodge D150 that has been repowered with a 93 Cummins/518 running gear AKA The Ugly Duck! I would much rather build them then buy them.[
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby Begle1 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:55 am

KTA wrote:Yes I plan to make a special Tee banjo fitting so that I can monitor case pressure before the orificed return banjo. My other option is to make a fitting to get the pressure out of the fuel shut off solenoid port since I gut them to run anyway so I don't need a 12V power supply. I am conceraned that if I put it there though I will get a lot of pressure fluctuation form the plunger. decisions, decisions.......... Tractor pulling next weekend at Gordyville so that will probably put any more testing off for a couple of weeks as other stuff has now come up to do.



http://1stgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7807

$30? :alien:
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Tweaked injection pump, built transmission, a cataclysmic charlie foxtrot of electronics, the most intense street-ran water injection system in the country, and some more unique stuff.
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby KTA » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:47 pm

Thanks for the offer but I could make one for less than the shipping will cost. Have you used any of the ones you made hooked to a mechanical gauge? Did you notice alot of fluctuation in the pressures from the pulse of the plunger? I am thinking it might would need a dampner inline for a decent reading getting the pressure there, but if I get it form the return it should be pretty smooth.
Fleet of Junk: 1989 D350 627rwhp 1300 tq B-1/Hx60 twins, KTA pump/injectors, ported head, BIG fuel supply. 13.75@ 109.5mph 1/4: 1992 W350 Cab-chasis, 1993 W350 ext cab cust.370 inj Hx40/16cm 290rwhp hydroboost brakes,1984 D350 crew-cab another project.
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby Begle1 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:49 pm

KTA wrote:Thanks for the offer but I could make one for less than the shipping will cost. Have you used any of the ones you made hooked to a mechanical gauge? Did you notice alot of fluctuation in the pressures from the pulse of the plunger? I am thinking it might would need a dampner inline for a decent reading getting the pressure there, but if I get it form the return it should be pretty smooth.


You gotta cut the old one in half, take the guts out, weld in a metal plug, drill and tap the plug, then I am including a fitting. :

$20? :alien:



I've never hooked a mechanical gauge to it, just a transducer. The transducers been living so far. Liquid-filled gauge? Needle valves work wonders to.
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Tweaked injection pump, built transmission, a cataclysmic charlie foxtrot of electronics, the most intense street-ran water injection system in the country, and some more unique stuff.
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby 1STGENFARMBOY » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:44 pm

Thanks for doing the VE research KTA, it's almost like nobody
cares about the old VE anymore.

Dar
93 W250 STD CAB, AUTO 3.55, GAUGES, 80HP DDP STICKS, DENNY T ,16CM HOUSING, 60MM GILLETT, VE MAXED,BHAF, BHFF, 366 SPRING,P/S INTERCOOLER, TIMS COOLER TUBS, TIMMING 1/8 BUMP,4in TURBO BACK TO DUEL 5IN STACKS,33 12.50 BFG, HOLLEY BLACK, CONVERTER COOMING.
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby KTA » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:58 pm

I have a lathe. I can make the fitting from a piece of bar stock. No need to wreck a solenoid or to deal with its excess height.
Fleet of Junk: 1989 D350 627rwhp 1300 tq B-1/Hx60 twins, KTA pump/injectors, ported head, BIG fuel supply. 13.75@ 109.5mph 1/4: 1992 W350 Cab-chasis, 1993 W350 ext cab cust.370 inj Hx40/16cm 290rwhp hydroboost brakes,1984 D350 crew-cab another project.
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Re: Injection pump testing

Postby Begle1 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:00 pm

How do you use to cut those goofy threads? Just because I don't know.

$15? :alien:
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Tweaked injection pump, built transmission, a cataclysmic charlie foxtrot of electronics, the most intense street-ran water injection system in the country, and some more unique stuff.
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