24v fuel drain back issue or??

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24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby DodgeFreak » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:45 am

01 24v I put an aftermarket fuel tank module in it that i gutted the fuel pump in which got rid of the check valve. I have a fuel filter one way check valve coming for it.

Here's my problem. It is hard starting when you first fire it up. I kick the pump on so it runs for 20 seconds and i do that two times and it cranks for ever before firing off.

Yesterday I decided to see if the fuel was draining back, I first pushed in on the shradder valve on the fuel filter housing and it sounded like air came out. I then kicked the lift pump on and opened the shradder valve on the filter and fuel instantly came out, same with the injection pump. I tried starting it and it cranked for maybe 5 seconds before firing off.... If you shut it off it will fire right up. Its just if you leave it over night. Is it an issue of the fuel in the lines draining back or is it an issue of the injectors bleeding off? everytime it starts it puffs white smoke also.
92 D350 Cab and Chassis. Auto stock, wiring gremlins. 330k miles
92 W250 Ext cab rotted completely out. Auto, pump maxed, 215 ppump nozzles, Denny T2 pin.
85 D350 single wheel, converted to cummins, getrag, turned up 2 turns and afc screw flush.
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby ellis93 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:53 pm

Watch the wait to start light,if it lights upon turning the on,does it start?

If it does not light up,turn the key to the start position for just a second and let off,then turn the switch to off. Wait a few seconds then try to start it again.


If this helps crank the truck faster then there is an issue inside either the injection pump or computer. I know this all sounds stupid but I've ran into this more than a few times when replacing the injection pumps after supply pump failure. If you look into the wiring of these trucks you'll see that the supply pump pulls it's voltage striaght from the computer on block mounted pumps,no relays or fuses,100% computer. Pure insanity

Im not saying this "is" the problem just suggesting checking it. Most of us pay no attention to the WTS lights on a cummins :lol:
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby PToombs » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:21 pm

How much pressure are you pushing? VP44's don't like over 15-18 psi when starting. I thought it was only when hot but it might be any time, I can't remember exactly.
pete

Just enough power to break everything behind the crankshaft.
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby ellis93 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:01 pm

18 is about max,any time. More than that and some sort of diaphragm in the pump goes south :/
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby DodgeFreak » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:14 pm

II'll have to try this on monday after I get home from work and see what it's doing..i'll have the one way check by then and I'll go ahead and put it between the filter head and the lift pump. I hope its not a computer or the injection pump lol.. The truck runs good once its started...But I do think its lacking in power for being a vp44 truck, my ve crew would walk all over it. His truck has 260ish thousand miles.
92 D350 Cab and Chassis. Auto stock, wiring gremlins. 330k miles
92 W250 Ext cab rotted completely out. Auto, pump maxed, 215 ppump nozzles, Denny T2 pin.
85 D350 single wheel, converted to cummins, getrag, turned up 2 turns and afc screw flush.
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby RCCUMMINS89 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:57 am

My last vp truck I owned wouldn't start after it sat for half hour or so.....The cross over tubes were leaking... yet would dry so fast due to the engine heat you couldn't really notice it being wet.
89 RC on shortened 92 diesel frame - NV4500 w/dual disc/4.10s on 37s. - Self built pump, "hot screw", lots of timing, True high volume low pressure lift pump, 62fmw/68/.7gated, 77lpm SAC Inj., Studs/O-rings,- 423/1220 Mustang - 11/16/2013 http://www.TheHungryDiesel.com full line dealer, if you don't see it please ask.
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby PToombs » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:43 pm

Could be that too. I have set of new tubes and O-rings here I've been trying to get rid of and seems like nobody wants them!
Kinda sounds like to me the fuel is draining back because it's sucking air in. If the system is right there's no need for a checkvalve.
pete

Just enough power to break everything behind the crankshaft.
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby DodgeFreak » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:16 pm

Okay I've finally had time to mess with it again... I pulled the fuel filter and it was still fullish, I drained it and had my wife kick the pump on. with in 2 seconds the fuel filter was full. I put the filter back in primed the filter and the pump both. I hopped in (forgot to look at the wts light except I'm 90% sure it didn't come on) I cranked it for probably 20 seconds or more. nothing...cycled the key (remembered wts light) not on. and cranked for 10 seconds. Done what Ellis said and kept cycling the key until the wts light came on and it took probably 5 seconds before it fired. Shut it off and it fires back up like normal.

Not sure if all my cranking finally bled the system or if it was electrical...seems like a lot of cranking to bleed injector lines....... And once it fires it doesn't stumble like air in the system, its off and running. I have codes also but no cel. P-Pcu 1693 which I think is fault in companion module, P-ecu (in this order) 230 Fuel Pump Primary Circuit Malfunction 1689 (I'm not sure) 573 is cruise control\brake switch malfunction and 234 over boost condition. I have unhooked the batteries once for a couple minutes while I cleaned the posts. when running the check engine light isn't on.
92 D350 Cab and Chassis. Auto stock, wiring gremlins. 330k miles
92 W250 Ext cab rotted completely out. Auto, pump maxed, 215 ppump nozzles, Denny T2 pin.
85 D350 single wheel, converted to cummins, getrag, turned up 2 turns and afc screw flush.
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby ellis93 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:11 am

That fuel pump circuit code is a red flag to me.

From what I know thru dealing with these trucks and this symptom,the only way that this gets fixed is by dodge. There is some sort of reflash that is don't to remove a pump run timer in side of the ECM. I also think that the reflash also gets rid of the duty cycle pump drive crap and just runs the pump.
Now that you have seen the WTS light failure thing,take a test light and prob the power for the supply pump,then crank on the truck while watching for the WTS light and test light. I bet money you'll find that one doesn't light up without the other before it cranks.
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby PToombs » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:47 pm

My buddy has a problem almost like this in his '01. When we got dug into it I noticed there was a ground wire rusted off to the right of the ECM on the LP mount. We fixed it but it still has the intermittent start. I think his WTS light is out also, but I do know if the Airdog doesn't run the truck won't start. We came to the conclusion his ECM is junk, and I think it's because that ground was rotted off.
pete

Just enough power to break everything behind the crankshaft.
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby DodgeFreak » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:41 pm

Okay here's another twist to it....The wts light lights up every time tonight, still had a hard start cranked for 30 seconds no start, I cracked 2 lines and had my wife crank, another 20 seconds it starts spitting fuel out of the number 5 then 4 and then fires, lots of bubbles before it really starts squirting which brings me back to air in the system. So what else (besides the cross tube orings) could it be??? If its the orings I'll pull them replace and try again?? I tried clearing the code by disconnecting the battery which doesn't seem to work, so I'll bring home the code reader from work and clear them and see what comes back.
92 D350 Cab and Chassis. Auto stock, wiring gremlins. 330k miles
92 W250 Ext cab rotted completely out. Auto, pump maxed, 215 ppump nozzles, Denny T2 pin.
85 D350 single wheel, converted to cummins, getrag, turned up 2 turns and afc screw flush.
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby ellis93 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:16 am

You got me,screwy deal :?
93 D250 ,5 speed,4.11s,k&n autometer tach pyro trans boost guages,GDS 60mm h1c 14cm,honed 5x10,hplp/reg,1/8 timing,M+H M2 fuel pin, tims cooler tubz
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby DodgeFreak » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:42 am

Yeah im about to pull my hair out.....i think i have different problems causing the one big one
92 D350 Cab and Chassis. Auto stock, wiring gremlins. 330k miles
92 W250 Ext cab rotted completely out. Auto, pump maxed, 215 ppump nozzles, Denny T2 pin.
85 D350 single wheel, converted to cummins, getrag, turned up 2 turns and afc screw flush.
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby dazedandconfused » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:18 pm

The diaphragm will tear in the pump and cause this issue. My first 01 did it. You could barely give it a sniff of starting fluid and she would fire up and run all day. Shut it off and would just crank.
Big Andy
1983 Dodge D150 that has been repowered with a 93 Cummins/518 running gear AKA The Ugly Duck! I would much rather build them then buy them.[
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Re: 24v fuel drain back issue or??

Postby DodgeFreak » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:44 pm

I can bleed the filter and the ip but then it will crank for 30 seconds until the air is bled. If I bleed the filter and the ip and then crack a couple lines it will crank for ever and then it will start bubbling fuel and then fire.....I'm thinking about tossing the other IP on and praying it works.... I'm wondering if the pump inside the ip is bad and can't build enough pressure until it cranks forever. I'm going to try a check valve for now to rule out that its a bleed back issue.....
92 D350 Cab and Chassis. Auto stock, wiring gremlins. 330k miles
92 W250 Ext cab rotted completely out. Auto, pump maxed, 215 ppump nozzles, Denny T2 pin.
85 D350 single wheel, converted to cummins, getrag, turned up 2 turns and afc screw flush.
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