Set me straight on fuel cones, please

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Set me straight on fuel cones, please

Postby Begle1 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:38 pm

I thought that there was a limit to the amount of AFC travel that could be gained by extending the fuel cone profile, due to the AFC lever contacting the case.

I thought that limit could be reached by simply grinding down the stock fuel cone?


How is it that a DennyT pin can give you travel beyond what a ground stock fuel cone can give you, yet you can't gain the same results by grinding a stock fuel cone and shortening the rod that rides against the fuel cone?


To actually take advantage of the profile of a DennyT, don't you need to go to a longer rod and grind down the AFC lever accordingly?
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Postby crewcabxlt » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:35 pm

i noticed this when ive had pump tops off, even a longer rod wont add more fuel, ive posted about this before. i grind afc lever a little and grind my own pin so i still have afc control. i think alot of fuel leaks out the afc occur with pins cut too deep. the stock pin can be ground to fuel als much as the afc lever can move.
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Postby burnt_servo » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:47 am

i've noticed the same thing playing around with vw ve pumps , a person can grind deep enough into the stock fuel cone , to the point where the pin no longer rides on the cone ....
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Postby Begle1 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:51 pm

burnt_servo wrote:i've noticed the same thing playing around with vw ve pumps , a person can grind deep enough into the stock fuel cone , to the point where the pin no longer rides on the cone ....


I would also imagine that a witness mark on the cone might falsely indicate contact, because the fuel pressure in the injection pump could continue to press the rod against the cone even after the AFC lever reaches its limit of travel?
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Postby burnt_servo » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:57 am

Begle1 wrote:
burnt_servo wrote:i've noticed the same thing playing around with vw ve pumps , a person can grind deep enough into the stock fuel cone , to the point where the pin no longer rides on the cone ....


I would also imagine that a witness mark on the cone might falsely indicate contact, because the fuel pressure in the injection pump could continue to press the rod against the cone even after the AFC lever reaches its limit of travel?


is the fuel pressure behind the pin significant enough to push the pin into the cone ?

what i have seen is this ;

i use white lithium grease on the cone , there will be dark marks in the grease roughly 1/8 to 3/16 of a inch higher up the cone than the actual wear marks in the metal .

what i'm thinking is the afc lever has limited out and is no longer putting any pressure on the pin / cone where it stops marking the metal on the cone it's self .

but the dark marks in the greas might be the fuel pressure pushing the pin into the cone ?
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Postby dpuckett » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:08 pm

Fuel pressure inside the pump will move the pin past the sealing point- I saw it in my own truck with the fuel cone removed just to see what it does.

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Postby cougar » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:16 am

If you haven't been to
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/ ... p?t=231863
and here
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/ ... p?t=200901
yet, this may answer some of your questions.

A guide pin follows the fuel cone. In turn, the guide pin controls how much the AFC lever moves. Shortening the guide pin will only move the location of were the lever travels, not how much. The same is accomplished with the fuel screw. A fuel cone/pin with a different profile however, will change how much the AFC lever moves. More travel. There are 3 different guide pin lengths that can be used to keep the pin on the o-ring. Yes there is an overall mechanical limit to how much travel the AFC lever can attain.

Hope this helps.
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Postby Ace » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:05 am

I'm pretty sure the guide pin is doing it's thing on my BD fuel cone, because it's digging in there deeper and deeper and starting to get pretty aggressive. :shock:
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Postby cougar » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:43 pm

BD and Old Smokey pins have a history for being too soft. M&H and Denny T are reported as hardened pins/cones for longer life.
RIP 91.5 W250 5 speed. The great experiment.
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Postby cougar » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:46 pm

Ace wrote:I'm pretty sure the guide pin is doing it's thing on my BD fuel cone, because it's digging in there deeper and deeper and starting to get pretty aggressive. :shock:


I was just thinking.
If you know a gun smith, they should be able to clean it up and either heat treat it or case harden it.
RIP 91.5 W250 5 speed. The great experiment.
92 W250 HD 47RH with Compushift. Upgraded H1C to 62/60/16, Scheid Lightning VE, 60# valve springs, DAP 7X.010 injectors, 4" DE exhaust, home made cooler tubes.
01 2500 "the work truck".
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Postby Ace » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:25 am

I'm going to tap it with the MIG a few times, quench, re-surface with a slightly modified profile and see what happens.

They appear to be case hardened from BD, not enough. Once it got through the surface it was all over.
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Postby noseamum » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:32 pm

What is M&H?
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Postby Begle1 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:01 pm

cougar wrote: Yes there is an overall mechanical limit to how much travel the AFC lever can attain.


So what is required to reach that limit?

Is that limit reached with a ground stock fuel cone?
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Postby Swaggs » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:14 pm

I saw a dyno run on youtube with a ground stock pin, and right after they installed a denny2 it gave it like 26 hp and 31 tq... So, i dont know if the lever does reach max with a ground stock, or do you think maybe it just reaches max earlier and stays there.. i dont know..
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Postby cougar » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:52 am

Begle1 wrote:
cougar wrote: Yes there is an overall mechanical limit to how much travel the AFC lever can attain.


So what is required to reach that limit?

Is that limit reached with a ground stock fuel cone?


To give you some exact numbers I would have to take one apart and measure it. Researching other posts here and other web sites you can attain quite a bit (relatively). Some people will grind their AFC lever to get more travel. Some have removed it all together to get max performance period. Before you ask, the AFC meters fuel based on boost and the pin/cone is just to profile fueling in relation to. Remove the AFC and you no longer have "boost based" fuel profiling, just straight throttle position.
RIP 91.5 W250 5 speed. The great experiment.
92 W250 HD 47RH with Compushift. Upgraded H1C to 62/60/16, Scheid Lightning VE, 60# valve springs, DAP 7X.010 injectors, 4" DE exhaust, home made cooler tubes.
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